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Audio Transcript

 

(This transcript was auto-generated so there may be some errors)

00:00:00:03 – 00:00:01:17
Miyoko Schinner
By the way, what locks you train at?

00:00:03:09 – 00:00:22:05
Nathan Crane
I’m here in Jacksonville, Florida. And so there’s a gym here called CrossFit Total Control West. It’s kind of the main one I train at, but I kind of bounced around between there, my home gym and L.A. Fitness. And there’s kind of like bounce, bounce around between them right now.

00:00:23:04 – 00:00:23:11
Miyoko Schinner
Okay.

00:00:23:21 – 00:00:26:17
Nathan Crane
Yeah. You’re in where? You’re in Marin. You’re in California.

00:00:26:18 – 00:00:39:16
Miyoko Schinner
I’ve been in rent. Yeah. Yeah. So I did CrossFit like years ago when I turned 50. Like, right when crossed like the only. There were only like a couple of boxes at the time that was in. That was more than 16 years ago.

00:00:40:02 – 00:00:42:11
Nathan Crane
Oh, wow. So you’re still doing CrossFit now or. No?

00:00:43:01 – 00:00:58:21
Miyoko Schinner
No. I mean, I do CrossFit like workouts. I have a home gym. So, you know, like I’ll do like a really modified friend or, you know, whatever. Like, I’ll just wait. I, I’ve cut way back, you know, I’m 66 and a half and and.

00:00:59:09 – 00:01:01:01
Nathan Crane
You look great for six, six and a half.

00:01:01:14 – 00:01:26:04
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I just like, I just get injured all the time, like, I don’t know, like I was doing back squats a couple of weeks ago and I finally had work back up to £100. Doesn’t sound like a lot, but. And then so I thought, oh, I’ll do 110. And then I pulled a muscle. So it’s like, I don’t know, I feel like my body is just not what it used to be.

00:01:26:05 – 00:01:27:19
Miyoko Schinner
So anyway.

00:01:27:23 – 00:01:48:24
Nathan Crane
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I can imagine, I mean, we’ve, we had at my CrossFit gym in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where I started, we had a woman there who was I think she was 70, close to 70. And she, she started because she loved to sell and she had a sailboat and she just she couldn’t sell anymore.

00:01:48:24 – 00:02:07:20
Nathan Crane
She’d gotten too weak to frail and she just literally couldn’t do it anymore. She heard about CrossFit. She started getting kind of some one on one training and then started she worked her way up to be able to do the classes. And you know, that’s cool. Thing about CrossFit, you can scale everything if you’ve got good coaches, if you have good coaches, CrossFit, amazing for everybody.

00:02:08:07 – 00:02:24:04
Nathan Crane
If you don’t have great coaches, then you know, it can be challenging because if you’re someone like me and I don’t know about you, but if you’re like type A person, it’s like you want to go hard all the time, heavy, you know, do your best. And as you’re aging, as you know, that’s not always ideal.

00:02:25:00 – 00:02:25:05
Miyoko Schinner
Right.

00:02:25:06 – 00:02:46:17
Nathan Crane
And and or like you can overdo it. You can go too heavy, too fast or not have like my issues early on was I didn’t have good range of motion. I had poor flexibility, you know, and then, yeah, all that stuff leads to injuries. So it’s like if you have good coaches. So this woman, we had great coaches, they’re older population, so they’re really used to working with people as they age.

00:02:46:17 – 00:02:56:11
Nathan Crane
And so I mean, she’d been doing it for two or three years and was able to sell again, you know, got her fitness back, her strength back, her health back. And she was just like on cloud nine, you know?

00:02:56:17 – 00:03:02:24
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. It’s it’s really a great workout. And I just have to modify it and scale it back.

00:03:03:06 – 00:03:22:05
Nathan Crane
100%. Yeah. I mean, I have to right now too, because I’m dealing with a couple of injuries from from overtraining. You know, I’ve been training to be a competitive athlete and just it too far to too hard too long push through injuries instead of backing off and like letting them rest. I’m like, oh, it’s just pain. It’ll go away.

00:03:22:05 – 00:03:47:22
Nathan Crane
And then two or three months later, it’s like now it hasn’t gone away. It’s actually gotten worse. And so now I’ve had a back way off and yeah, I’m scaling everything right now too. But, you know, hopefully we we live and learn, right? Miyoko Schnur is an award winning chef, author, entrepreneur, speaker. She founded MillerCoors Creamery and is the author of six cookbooks, including the best selling Homemade Vegan Pantry.

00:03:48:03 – 00:04:02:03
Nathan Crane
She currently hosts a new YouTube cooking channel called The Vegan Good Life with Miyoko. And you were featured in that Netflix series. I think a bunch of people have seen by now You are what you eat, which is the twin experiment.

00:04:02:22 – 00:04:03:06
Miyoko Schinner
Yes.

00:04:03:17 – 00:04:10:02
Nathan Crane
I want to talk about that. I want to talk about your career also. You know, you’ve been vegan for like 30 something years, right?

00:04:10:14 – 00:04:16:18
Miyoko Schinner
Oh, since the 1980s. So I think it’s coming up on 40 years. What? Yeah.

00:04:17:00 – 00:04:21:15
Nathan Crane
And what? It’s a long time. What has been the hardest part of being vegan for you?

00:04:22:19 – 00:04:55:14
Miyoko Schinner
Oh, the hardest part, I think, has been trying to figure out the best form of activism. Mm hmm. I, I have wavered between not really talking about why vegan to going overboard and just sort of getting on my soapbox and really just trying to find that balance and figure out what is effective activism, what is what communicates to people, that this is a great lifestyle, what is inspirational?

00:04:55:17 – 00:05:02:20
Miyoko Schinner
How can I inspire people to be better versions of themselves? And that has taken a long time to figure out.

00:05:03:24 – 00:05:06:22
Nathan Crane
Have you figured it out as far?

00:05:07:08 – 00:05:18:20
Miyoko Schinner
You know, that maybe a lifelong search. However, I feel like I’ve gotten a lot better and I have figured out that you can’t scream at people, you can’t shame them, you can’t scare them.

00:05:19:04 – 00:05:22:12
Nathan Crane
You don’t throw blood on them, you know? That’s right.

00:05:22:14 – 00:05:42:22
Miyoko Schinner
That’s right. It doesn’t work. You have to inspire them. You have to give them hope. You have to encourage them. Let them know that they too can be better versions of themselves. They can be happier. They can be stronger. Everything that they thought about is possible. And you have to do it in a way that is loving and caring and shows compassion.

00:05:43:02 – 00:05:53:22
Miyoko Schinner
And if you can do that with great food over a table while breaking bread, having great conversation, I think you can touch people in ways that can transform their lives.

00:05:54:20 – 00:06:14:10
Nathan Crane
So are you someone who believes every single person needs to be vegan no matter what? Or are you more open to freedom of choice? People can choose whatever they want. You encourage people to be vegan for the various reasons that I’d love for you to share. But at the end of the day, it’s up to them and you’re not here to tell them what to do.

00:06:14:10 – 00:06:16:12
Nathan Crane
Like, where do you stand on that end of the spectrum?

00:06:17:04 – 00:06:34:17
Miyoko Schinner
Well, I’m definitely not here to tell them what to do, but I also think it has to do with where you live on the planet and where you are in your life. You may not have a choice to be vegan. You know, you may be in a life situation where you’re depending on food that’s provided to you and you don’t have a say.

00:06:35:01 – 00:06:57:10
Miyoko Schinner
But if you do have a choice, then I do encourage you to explore this way of living. And it’s not just a diet. It really is a way of living that is based on compassion and and respect for all living beings, both human and non-human. But many people in the world don’t have that ability. They’re not in a place they’re not in a position to choose what they eat.

00:06:57:10 – 00:06:59:04
Miyoko Schinner
And I can’t pass judgment on them.

00:07:00:19 – 00:07:08:10
Nathan Crane
What do you say for people who believe that God put animals here for humans as food?

00:07:08:17 – 00:07:13:02
Miyoko Schinner
I’m well, I read the Bible and I don’t know where it says that anywhere.

00:07:13:20 – 00:07:40:02
Nathan Crane
It does not say, though. It does say, you know, don’t eat clothing, who have animals, but you can eat other types of animals that remember word for word. But but there is it is in the Bible about not don’t eat these animals, but you can eat these animals, basically. And it’s like the cloven loved ones don’t eat. You know, Jesus gave, you know, fish to, you know.

00:07:40:02 – 00:08:03:14
Nathan Crane
And so obviously there’s argument of, well, a lot of the Bible is metaphorical, right. And so how do you differentiate between what’s metaphorical and what’s literal? That’s that’s that’s an interesting conversation I love to have with people because it even says right in the Bible that Jesus teaches in parables so that people may understand Him, which parables are basically stories or metaphors.

00:08:03:23 – 00:08:29:15
Nathan Crane
And so I think a challenge is when you take everything literal in these ancient texts, like the Bible or even or even the Bhagavad Gita, for example, which is basically a story of metaphors. You know, if you take things absolutely literal, then are you missing what was actually being said? And so that’s a challenge. But but yeah, it does say in the Bible, you know, you can eat meat.

00:08:29:15 – 00:08:48:03
Miyoko Schinner
But well, I mean, you know, I think that could be argued as well, too. I mean, there are lots of words in the Bible that we’ve read in the King James edition in a certain translation. And, you know, we may not actually have a true translation of certain Hebrew or Greek words. For example, the word dominion over animals.

00:08:48:03 – 00:09:15:10
Miyoko Schinner
Apparently that word is at the time that it was written, actually meant more like stewardship. Mm hmm. So, you know, we it was our responsibility to take care of animals, not do whatever we want with them. And, you know, we can also be debated. There is the the scene where Christ goes into the temple and rails against the money changers and knocks over tables.

00:09:15:10 – 00:09:32:13
Miyoko Schinner
And apparently they had lot to do with animal sacrifices and selling a body parts. And so there’s a lot that I think could be argued about whether or not, you know, where the Bible really stands on it. So, you know, it’s complicated.

00:09:32:22 – 00:10:05:13
Nathan Crane
It is complicated. I think it’s I think it’s an interesting question as well. And because if you look at the timeline, right in in Genesis before before Noah’s Ark, before that story happened, before the Great Flood, some in Genesis, I pulled up people to look it up, 129 to 130, it says, then God said, I’ve given you every sort of seed bearing plants on Earth and every kind of fruit bearing tree given them to you for food, to all animals and all birds, everything that moves and breathes.

00:10:05:13 – 00:10:08:04
Nathan Crane
I give whatever grows out of the ground for food.

00:10:08:23 – 00:10:11:07
Miyoko Schinner
So that we were all at one point.

00:10:11:13 – 00:10:40:06
Nathan Crane
Potentially. Right. And so that’s I mean, if if you believe, you know, the story of the Bible is basically saying in Genesis in the beginning, yeah, you know, the paradise on Earth is everything. Everybody’s eating plants and not eating animals. And then the flood happens. Noah’s ark, the animals he saves them to buy to, etc.. And then that that passage comes where he says, you can eat certain animals and not other animals, or the Bible says that anyway.

00:10:40:06 – 00:10:58:24
Nathan Crane
And so what’s interesting about that timeline, if you were thinking through it kind of logically is like, well, okay, if there was a great flood and you no longer had access to any plants to eat because it wiped all of it out, what would you eat? Well, you had some animals. So he said, okay, you can eat these animals so you don’t die.

00:10:59:23 – 00:11:17:00
Nathan Crane
But the paradise in the beginning, it’s it’s plants. So it’s almost like, well, now, if we were going back to that paradise time, do we need to kill animals to eat them? And would God would God want us to. You know, that’s a that’s an interesting religious philosophical question that.

00:11:17:19 – 00:11:46:22
Miyoko Schinner
I think we have to always reflect upon our point in time where are we in place in time and determine what choices do we actually have? And then we have to make whatever best choices we’re presented with. And those choices can depend on our situation in life and where we are historically as well as in place. But I think those of us in the Western world have a lot of options and so we have to choose wisely.

00:11:48:10 – 00:12:16:09
Nathan Crane
So when when what do you say to people who don’t recognize that, you know, animals shouldn’t be food for them, who basically say, well, you know, they’re here for us to eat, we need me to survive, etc., etc.. But you’re more on a compassionate side. You’re an animal rights activist. Why? Why do you have that stance? What has driven you to that?

00:12:17:16 – 00:12:37:05
Miyoko Schinner
Well, let’s go back to the Bible for a minute. The Greek word that’s used for love in the New Testament is agape. And there are several different words for there’s philos orga pey eros. These are all Greek words for love, and they represent different types of love. But the word that’s used for love in the Bible actually means compassion.

00:12:37:18 – 00:13:04:02
Miyoko Schinner
It means having a type of love that is all encompassing towards others, towards other beings. And it’s all been translated into this simplified English word, love. And so we don’t distinguish between the love, between a man and a woman or for your children or whatever. So I think we need to keep that in mind in terms of figuring out how can we become our best selves.

00:13:04:08 – 00:13:24:01
Miyoko Schinner
Now, when I talk to someone who says, Well, I’m not going to give up meat, I’m a hardcore meat eater. I don’t usually get into these conversations with them. Normally, the the omnivores at my table are delighted to eat whatever it is I put in front of them, and I try to create community events I live in. To be honest, I live in egg land.

00:13:24:01 – 00:13:50:22
Miyoko Schinner
I live in a land in a in the countryside, surrounded by dairy farms and cattle ranches and pig farmers and so on. And I have a lot of friends in the community, and I’ve had ranchers sit at my table. I actually did a vegan cooking class last summer and I had three ranchers show up and they were all telling me they just want to learn how to eat that tastier vegetables.

00:13:50:22 – 00:14:12:11
Miyoko Schinner
They just they all realize that they need to reduce their meat intake, even if they’re in the business of selling meat. I’ve even had a rancher tell me that the hardest thing for her is when the transport truck comes to haul her animals away. And so, you know, ranchers are also people with feelings. They also are oftentimes very, very conflicted.

00:14:12:11 – 00:14:48:01
Miyoko Schinner
But it’s how they make their living. And so showing compassion towards them, sharing food, sharing possibilities is just opening up their minds to different ways they can prepare food. This is an act of activism for me, being a good member of the community, being friends with them, showing them that I care about them, that that that we’re all in this community together and I think the biggest form of act, the most effective form of activism, is building community and showing that you are a supporter of that.

00:14:49:17 – 00:15:21:17
Nathan Crane
One of the hardest things for me to to grasp my mind around because I agree. I think if we want to be compassionate, spiritually evolved human beings and in my mind and if you look at every ancient philosophical and religious text, you know, being spiritually advanced, spiritually elevated, evolved is about being compassionate, loving, understanding, elevating ourselves, emotionally experiencing and and embracing and exuding more love, forgiveness, compassion.

00:15:22:14 – 00:15:48:14
Nathan Crane
The one of the really big challenges for me to to understand because to understand someone, you have to put yourself in their shoes and try to understand their thinking and what they’re going through. Right. Is this idea of humane killing or humane slaughtering. Like, it’s tough for me to understand that someone can justify, okay, we raise these animals, we take good care of them, and then we humanely kill them.

00:15:48:14 – 00:16:14:24
Nathan Crane
I don’t think I mean, of course, you could torture an animal or torture someone and that wouldn’t be humane. But I don’t see I think there’s a logical fallacy there in that killing something or someone is not there’s no humanity in that. There’s no way to do that humanely. Just because you put a bullet through their head or slit their throat, you know, it’s just hard for me to to grasp that concept that there’s such a thing.

00:16:14:24 – 00:16:15:18
Nathan Crane
How do you look at that?

00:16:16:13 – 00:16:39:22
Miyoko Schinner
No, I’m with you. 100%. And that is the point that where I differ with some of my neighbors, I mean, I’ve actually had this exact same conversation with rancher who said, we take care of all the animals. They are given the best life possible and they have one bad day, you know, and that’s where we’re going to part ways.

00:16:40:03 – 00:16:57:01
Miyoko Schinner
But that’s not going to stop me from breaking bread with them. That’s not going to stop me from inviting them to my table and sharing great vegan food. And, you know, I have friends that argued to me for 20, 30 years. And then one day they came to me and they said, I finally get it. I’m vegan now.

00:16:57:14 – 00:17:18:00
Miyoko Schinner
So, you know, they could be the most hardcore rancher who still continues. And there are animals away on that transport truck. But I see it, I see it. I see their hearts opening up a little at a time, just like that woman I that female rancher I told you about who says every single year she cries when her animals are taken away.

00:17:18:16 – 00:17:37:14
Miyoko Schinner
But that’s her livelihood. She has no other way to make a living. And she was, you know, 65 or so at the time. And she said, I don’t know what else I would do. And so I don’t think she owns her land. I think she leases it. So we do have to have compassion and people are on their own journeys and know there is no such thing as humane slaughter.

00:17:37:14 – 00:17:56:21
Miyoko Schinner
At the end of the day, you’re killing an animal for your own enjoyment because it’s not for your survival. You absolutely do not need to kill an animal to survive anymore. You know, maybe if you live I don’t know if you were in some era in the Amazon or something like that and you didn’t know what plants to eat, I don’t know.

00:17:56:22 – 00:18:17:18
Miyoko Schinner
But I mean, unless there’s an extreme situation, it’s just not necessary anymore. But I’m still not going to unfriend these people. Right. Because I need to feel I need to continue being their friend if I’m ever going to have a chance to get through.

00:18:18:09 – 00:18:37:12
Nathan Crane
I love that. I mean, how can you be friends with with animals and care about animals, but not fellow humans and and people that we don’t agree with? Right. It’s like you don’t agree with everything an animal does, but you’re still going to have love and compassion for them. You may not agree with everything that your neighbors do, but it’s still a great practice to have love and compassion for them no matter what.

00:18:37:12 – 00:18:59:01
Nathan Crane
We differ on beliefs. I think this is, you know, the beauty of our modern day. And and one of the benefits, I mean, there’s definitely some detriments to the Internet and social media, but one of the benefits to it is that we actually get to see dissenting opinions and viewpoints and share ideas and and see what other people are thinking and have those conversations.

00:18:59:10 – 00:19:25:05
Nathan Crane
Because we need to I mean, if we’re going to grow as individuals and grow as a society, as a human population around the planet, we have to be open to seeing other people’s viewpoints and ideas and not, you know, the detriment to social media is what happens is like people disagree with you and they really mainly attack you and call you names and all this stuff that they would never say to your face.

00:19:25:05 – 00:19:44:22
Nathan Crane
First of all, they would never you would never meet somebody in person and they’d be like, Oh, you’re a piece of shit and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, buddy. Like, No one would ever do that, you know? But for whatever reason, you hide behind the veil of your social media account, and people’s garbage just gets spewed out and I, you know, I’ve seen myself doing it.

00:19:44:22 – 00:19:57:01
Nathan Crane
I’d see someone post something. I’m like, That is so stupid where you catch myself, be like, Hang on a second. What do you do? I’m like, This is not going to help anybody or anything. So I’ve certainly been guilty of it, but I manage it pretty well.

00:19:57:20 – 00:19:58:17
Miyoko Schinner
But absolutely.

00:19:59:13 – 00:20:21:03
Nathan Crane
But we have to be open to different viewpoints, right. And that’s why I have been extensively following, you know, the Carnivore movement, because I’m trying to understand these doctors and people why they’re saying what they’re saying. At first I was like, these guys are idiots. They don’t know what they’re talking about. And the more I’ve followed it the last few years, like, the more I really understand.

00:20:21:12 – 00:20:43:08
Nathan Crane
I mean, these are people coming to these doctors with IBS, with chronic diseases, with, you know, irritable bowel, with Crohn’s disease, and and they get on an all meat diet and all their symptoms go away. Their disease goes away. They feel amazing. They have energy, you know, on a carnivore that this a carnivore diet is the way it saved my life, saved my health.

00:20:43:13 – 00:20:59:22
Nathan Crane
And there’s not it’s not a one off case. It’s thousands and thousands of cases. So from a health perspective, people are seeing results in the short term, nobody knows what’s going to happen long term with that. We have no studies, no long to I can’t say long term. We’re all going to have heart disease and die. Nobody can.

00:20:59:22 – 00:21:18:20
Nathan Crane
No doctor, no scientist. I believe that’s probably what’s going to happen. A lot of us believe that’s probably what’s going to happen. There’s no carnivore expert. Doctors say, yeah, you can be on this all meat diet for 40 years. You’re going to be fine. You’re going to be great and healthy. There’s nobody that can say you’re going to be on this for two years and everyone’s going to end up with heart disease and cancer and die either.

00:21:18:20 – 00:21:37:00
Nathan Crane
We don’t have those studies, but at the end of the day, that’s what people are being led to believe. You know, they’re being led to believe over this. This healed my digestive issues are my symptoms of my heart, immune disease or whatever. So this is a diet I should be on for the rest of my life. And I got into.

00:21:37:00 – 00:21:59:19
Miyoko Schinner
Well, you know. Go ahead. No, no, no, no. I mean, you got that CrossFit t shirt on. And when I was doing CrossFit back, you know, ten or 15 years ago, everybody was getting on the Paleo diet and people were telling me that I was going to be really, really sick, that I wasn’t going to be able to do CrossFit because I was a vegan.

00:21:59:19 – 00:22:25:23
Miyoko Schinner
I think, you know, I don’t think I followed the carnivore diet like you have. But I will say that if you just look at the longest lived societies in the world, they’re not carnivorous societies. They eat very little meat. And so we often forget when we live here in the United States, or maybe in Europe, we tend to focus on what we’re doing in our society as the only way to do it.

00:22:26:08 – 00:22:49:05
Miyoko Schinner
And we forget that historically, for most of us, most in most parts of the world, we ate mainly a plant based diet. And everywhere, I mean, we just didn’t have access to meat like we would. People talk about hunter gatherers. I mean, that’s sort of a it’s sort of been debunked. We were more gatherers and we were hunters because we just couldn’t catch that many animals.

00:22:49:05 – 00:23:11:13
Miyoko Schinner
And, you know, we didn’t have refrigeration. There were so many other reasons as to why you just couldn’t eat meat on a daily basis. So there are very few societies that did. And if you just look at the longest lived societies today, the blue zones or many other parts of the world, the ones that live the longest do not eat a lot of meat.

00:23:11:13 – 00:23:33:15
Miyoko Schinner
They eat mostly legumes and vegetables and whole grains. And so I don’t think maybe I mean, I think it’s odd that somebody should feel great from eating meat for a short time. But I imagine that I don’t think I don’t think their longevity is going to I don’t think there’ll be much longevity to maintaining it.

00:23:34:01 – 00:23:54:08
Nathan Crane
Yeah, I mean, time will tell. I mean, we’ve got people that are six, seven years into it and doing great and amazing, their LDL cholesterol super high. But there’s, you know, there’s this theory now that high LDL only matters in a insulin resistant environment and there’s actually some weight to that theory. But again, we have no hard evidence, no long term studies.

00:23:54:08 – 00:24:07:11
Nathan Crane
As you said, all the long term data and studies point to more plant food in your diet, more real foods, more organic foods. Of course, less processed foods overall is going to lead to a longer, healthier life.

00:24:07:11 – 00:24:09:24
Miyoko Schinner
And I’m going to go ahead. Sorry.

00:24:10:14 – 00:24:35:19
Nathan Crane
Now, I’m just going to say and because I got into, you know, plant based, you know, beginnings and vegetarianism through the health component first 2010 and then, you know, and my my main focus has been health and health research. But over time, pretty quickly, it was in the first one or two years, definitely connected with compassion for animals and sustainability of the planet.

00:24:35:19 – 00:24:58:08
Nathan Crane
So like that’s been a big part of my life the last 13 years, but have been very heavily focused on the health and health research part for the last 13 plus years. And so the health sides really fascinating to me because what we saw was true even in the plant based community. What I’m finding out, there’s a lot of holes in it.

00:24:58:08 – 00:25:16:23
Nathan Crane
And so I think people have to be careful. You know, I’m finding every day is like that’s what I’m saying. We have to be open minded to all of it because, you know, science is rapidly evolving and there’s no science that’s ever set in stone. And that’s super important. Not for carnivore, not for Omnivore, not for vegan. Right.

00:25:16:23 – 00:25:30:10
Nathan Crane
There’s no hard core. Science is set in stone. This is the only way it is. But to your point, if we look at people living in the blue zones now, we know, you know, not all of them were were plant based. We know none of them were actually vegan.

00:25:32:04 – 00:25:32:04
Miyoko Schinner
Or.

00:25:32:17 – 00:25:54:22
Nathan Crane
Vegetarian. Yeah. Vegetarian or or, you know, a little bit of fish, you know, Mediterranean diets. Great example. Right? Right. Sardinia, Italy. I mean, eat a little bit of fish and maybe a little bit of lamb, but most people. So my friend Jason Prall, founder of the Human Longevity Project, went to the Blue Zones and filmed his own documentary series there years ago.

00:25:55:13 – 00:26:16:05
Nathan Crane
And he told me, he said, You know, we never met anybody vegan, but we met most people vegetarian or or strong whole food plant based diet with a little bit of meat. They they drank some of their own milk from their own shaved dates, some eggs from their own chickens, things like that, but predominantly plants. And the older they were, he met more and more.

00:26:16:05 – 00:26:40:00
Nathan Crane
And he’s not even vegan. Vegetarian. He has no he has no, you know, fight in the game or, you know, stake in the game. For example, it’s like he would just want to go find out the truth. And so I find his what he shared to be, you know, very reliable. And the difference there, too, though, is the community aspect, the relationships, the spiritual aspect.

00:26:40:02 – 00:26:44:01
Miyoko Schinner
The audience was relatively important. Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:44:19 – 00:26:59:13
Nathan Crane
And I would say the closeness to the closeness to nature and the closeness to their animals where they ate them or not, the closeness to them, the local aspect of it, the organic, you know, all of that makes such a huge difference.

00:27:00:09 – 00:27:25:15
Miyoko Schinner
I mean, the animals aren’t in some fancy farm in the Central Valley, you know, unseen from the public eye and all of that. So, I mean, it all adds up. There is no way to just isolate diet and say that diet alone is enough because it’s not, you know, you can eat the healthiest diet and you could be living all by your lonesome without a community, and you could get cancer from that.

00:27:25:15 – 00:28:04:20
Miyoko Schinner
You know, just because you’re depressed and stressed out are all. So I don’t think that you can you can isolate any one of these community exercise, diet and say that one thing alone will give you longevity. But, you know, I want to add a little bit about like there is an obsession in this country with personal health and in many parts of the world, you don’t have the luxury of focusing on your own individual health because you’re trying to make a living or support your family or just get enough food on the table.

00:28:04:20 – 00:28:39:20
Miyoko Schinner
And at the same time that we’re just we’re obsessed with our personal health. We’re destroying the planet and we’re killing animals. And it begs the question, how healthy can we truly be if the planet is not healthy, if were if animals aren’t healthy, if the way we’re living is destroying the planet. And now we’ve got, you know, microplastics everywhere and and there’s, I don’t know, antibiotics being used on every single animal.

00:28:39:20 – 00:29:11:21
Miyoko Schinner
And and, you know, animal suffering is contributing to the demise of the planet, etc.. How what does it matter how healthy we are as an individual and can’t even be that healthy in an unhealthy ecosystem? And so I think at some point we have to overcome our obsession with personal health and realize that personal health is tied to global health, to ecosystem health, to the health of the community.

00:29:12:05 – 00:29:21:08
Miyoko Schinner
And without everything working in in tandem, you know, we can’t really say, hey, I’m really, really healthy.

00:29:21:08 – 00:29:38:12
Nathan Crane
That’s a good point. I mean, it’s a fishbowl analogy. You know, if you had a sick fish, you don’t try to treat the fish. If the fish was getting sick from dirty water, that’s living in you know, you change the water, right? You don’t try to treat the fish as like, oh, it’s in dirty, polluted water. Let’s get clean water in there.

00:29:38:20 – 00:30:13:05
Nathan Crane
That’s, you know, the world is our fishbowl. And yes, we are polluting it extensively. And I guess that leads to a problem I have with veganism in in some aspects where we tout veganism as the end all, cure all, be all solution for sustainability, for health, for, you know, compassion, etc., when in fact there are aspects of veganism that are completely destroying the planet, that are completely destroying people’s health, that are leading to chronic diseases, that are causing tremendous amount of pollution.

00:30:14:06 – 00:30:30:13
Nathan Crane
And so, you know, when we and I used to be, you know, more of a zealot of like, oh, yeah, veganism is the way for everybody, for the whole planet, for everything. And then as I’ve kind of woken up to the realities over the years, it’s like, well, no, there are very, very dark sides to veganism that we need to be aware of.

00:30:30:13 – 00:31:00:18
Nathan Crane
And it’s not the end all, be all for for every solution. And that’s my perspective. My perspective is because you can go vegan and live on a junk food diet, which is what many, many people do. And if you look at most of the studies showing vegan deficiencies in vegan bone health density decreasing and vegan health problems, every single one of those studies that I’ve seen is people on primarily a junk food vegan diet.

00:31:00:18 – 00:31:07:13
Nathan Crane
It’s processed food, it’s ultra processed, it’s Doritos, it’s it’s crap food. It’s, you know, Oreos and stuff.

00:31:07:23 – 00:31:32:13
Miyoko Schinner
Unsuitable burgers, etc., you know. And. Nathan, I’m on the same page as you are. I think there is a tendency in the community to think that as long as I’m saving animals, that’s all that matters. I don’t care what I eat. And I say to these people, You should care what you eat. And it’s not just about your personal health because what you eat impacts more than just animals.

00:31:32:22 – 00:31:52:09
Miyoko Schinner
It impacts how people live in other parts of the world. For example, these processed foods that are that are vegan. First of all, I want to just point out that they’re kind of giving veganism a bad name. A lot of people go, I would never go vegan because it’s just full of junk food. And it’s really true. That is what the marketplace today is full of.

00:31:52:19 – 00:32:22:07
Miyoko Schinner
People don’t associate veganism with eating whole beans and vegetables and sort of a fresh diet anymore. You know, 20 years ago, yeah, vegan a vegan diet meant a fresh Whole Foods based diet that would that would that was full of energy and would give you an abundant amount of, I don’t know, by viciousness. But today people think, you know, I could never go vegan because I don’t want to eat beyond I don’t like the taste of it and I don’t like the list of ingredients.

00:32:22:07 – 00:32:46:21
Miyoko Schinner
I can’t pronounce health. I mean, why do I want to put methyl cellulose into my body? And so it’s sort of given veganism a bad rap. But at the same time, I will say that a lot of processed food in general, whether it’s vegan or not vegan, are foods that are produced by ten, the ten largest food companies in the world that now control over 70% of the food system.

00:32:47:17 – 00:33:14:05
Miyoko Schinner
And they basically tell farmers and producers what to grow, what to make, and what price they’re willing to pay and what that’s done is it created a system of basically indentured servants all over the world. And we have it started with the Green Revolution with Monsanto and GMO seed. So GMO is not just about personal health, it is about more than soil health as well.

00:33:14:05 – 00:33:38:13
Miyoko Schinner
It’s about the health of communities because they went into places like India and they say, Hey, we want you to grow these crops, these ten crops for us and these Indian farmers or farmers in the Southern Hemisphere stop growing, you know, the hundreds of varieties of of crops that they were growing that were feeding their community. And they started growing a limited number of crops simply for these corporations.

00:33:38:13 – 00:34:06:11
Miyoko Schinner
And we’re talking like Nestlé and Unilever and ConAgra. And, you know, they were they started growing just a certain variety of potatoes, corn, wheat, soy that would go into these packaged products. And what happened then was that they stopped being able to feed their communities, that the rural communities started moving to this inner cities, these huge slums started, and they basically stopped feeding their communities and people.

00:34:06:16 – 00:34:41:17
Miyoko Schinner
And poverty and starvation actually rose. It didn’t diminish because of the so-called green revolution or modern agriculture. Modern agriculture has actually created more famine than than existed previously. So the fact that vegan processed foods are partaking are continuing the evolution of these highly commodified crops, these commodity crops, and participating in the corporate food system of making these packaged foods.

00:34:41:17 – 00:35:09:01
Miyoko Schinner
And if you’re a startup, your hope is that you’re going to be acquired by one of these ten big companies. We are further consolidating the economics of food into the hands of handful of corporations. And as we continue to do so, food sovereignty will decline. Communities will lose their ability to feed themselves. And at the end of the day, more animals will suffer.

00:35:09:04 – 00:35:37:01
Miyoko Schinner
So, I mean, I, you know, I hate to say it, but it’s not so cut and dried is whether or not there’s animals on your plate or there aren’t animals on your plate. It’s much more nuanced. It’s much more connected overall. In the entire industrialized food system that has led to the creation of processed, packaged foods is destroying not only the planet, but not only personal health, but the planet and and communities the world over.

00:35:37:01 – 00:36:10:16
Miyoko Schinner
So we really do need a new way. And veganism, a vegan company’s vegan foods are not innocent. They are also participating in the same sickness creating system. And we need to find a better way. We can do better as vegans, you know, so we can start creating foods that are, I don’t know, that create crop diversity, that restores soil health, that restore power back into the hands of small farmers the world over so we can do better.

00:36:10:16 – 00:36:15:14
Miyoko Schinner
We need to do better. I got on my soapbox for a minute.

00:36:16:04 – 00:36:48:23
Nathan Crane
I agree. I completely agree. And I think that’s that’s part of the bigger conversation we need to have as a as a community of people who are interested in nutrition, in health, in sustainability, in animal welfare, whether you’re vegan or not. You know, I have a company we just launched called Plant Powered Athlete, and it’s it’s about educating and supporting and helping people who are athletes at any age of life to to improve their performance and health by incorporating more plant foods into their diet.

00:36:48:23 – 00:37:10:23
Nathan Crane
And it’s not about vegans and vegetarians. It’s about everybody. It’s like, look, we know that if you eat more real food, more whole foods, more plant foods, more organic foods, and add them into your diet strategically, it’s going to help your health. It’s going to help you performance. It’s going to help the sustainability of the planet. And let’s go to the next level, right.

00:37:10:23 – 00:37:41:00
Nathan Crane
Which is regenerative agriculture, permaculture. I mean, that’s really to me, that’s the way of the future. Yeah. These conversations of people who say, okay, you’re killing all these animals and eating them, it’s inhumane. It is, you know, terrible thing that you’re doing. And then animal based people say, well, yeah, but you guys are killing all these animals from all the crops that you grow and manage because it’s killing all the the mice and the in the ground animals and the rabbits and all them, because you have to, you know, to kill.

00:37:41:00 – 00:38:12:12
Nathan Crane
And and you’re basically killing all these animals. You know, they claim that you kill more animals through growing crops than you do eating animals. But that’s very debatable, right? I mean, it’s very debatable because. Well, let me put it this way. The solution there, no matter what is permaculture and or regenerative agriculture, but more likely permaculture, because if you’re doing permaculture, you’re growing food and harming the way nature intended was the way God intended, which is harmonious.

00:38:12:12 – 00:38:32:19
Nathan Crane
You’re not telling the soil and actually you wouldn’t kill any animals, in fact. But also people who are hardcore vegans and say no animals. That’s also the wrong approach. We need animals. We need animals for the soil. We need animals on the earth. We, you know, we we can live a symbiotic relationship. I love you. You said you have an animal sanctuary there.

00:38:32:19 – 00:38:38:21
Nathan Crane
You have a goat right outside your window, you know, and that’s it’s it’s fantastic. Like, that’s the relationship.

00:38:39:17 – 00:39:03:00
Miyoko Schinner
The rescued animals. You know, we also have an organic we have a garden, we have a youth program, and we have kids, school kids coming here every day. And they hang out with the animals and they learn that the animals are their friends. And then they go to our garden, which is basically permaculture, and they learn how to grow crops.

00:39:03:00 – 00:39:24:02
Miyoko Schinner
And we I don’t know how many different I think we probably have. It’s a very small plot, but we probably have about 75 different plants growing there, including rare ones. We have a plant called Wasabi Now, which is sort of like a it tastes like wasabi. It’s very spicy. You know, we’ve got Malabar spinach and just a lot of things that people have never seen before and they go, What is this?

00:39:24:02 – 00:39:47:01
Miyoko Schinner
And we’ve got native crops growing as well. Native California plants and amaranth and all this sort of stuff that’s that’s growing there. And we don’t till the kids plant. They they they do a little bit of weeding occasionally. And because we do have a farmed animal sanctuary and the animals are all rescued, we have a lot of compost.

00:39:47:21 – 00:40:03:20
Miyoko Schinner
So, you know, from having to look there manure every single day and we use it in the garden. I mean, we don’t have a problem with that. And as long as there are animals on the earth, even if we were to close all the factory farms, I mean, there’s still going to be the issue of, okay, so what do you do?

00:40:03:20 – 00:40:31:09
Miyoko Schinner
How do you take care of the animals? And until their natural lives come to an end? So there’s going to be, let’s just say, a lot of shit for a number of years that could be very well utilized. Even if we stop eating animals. And I don’t have a problem with that, as long as the animals are are not being slaughtered, they’re cared for, they can move to some sort of sanctuary model.

00:40:32:18 – 00:41:05:11
Miyoko Schinner
But I think it’s really important to teach kids about the individuals that animals are every single animal is an individual and they have different personalities. And when they get to know them, it’s just like getting to know your dog or cat and you realize how unique they are, their personalities. And sometimes it’s even more fun. The kids are just shocked when they find out that one goat likes to play pranks.

00:41:05:11 – 00:41:29:02
Miyoko Schinner
And you know, there’s another pig that likes to play with a certain toy or whatever, and they just absolutely love to see that. And then they go to the garden, get their hands in the soil, and they learn about how food is grown. One of the things today that I’ve noticed is that a lot of kids, especially in urban settings, have no idea where food comes from.

00:41:29:02 – 00:41:57:17
Miyoko Schinner
They think it comes from the store, that it comes out of a package. Right. And most kids see more food and packages than they do in their unadulterated state. They don’t even know if that looks like everything is in a box or a plastic bag. And so really being able to show them this is how this is how, you know, a grain grows, this is what wheat looks like, this is what corn looks like.

00:41:57:17 – 00:42:11:10
Miyoko Schinner
This is these are all these different vegetables that you can put in your salad, not just lettuce. It makes a huge impact on on kids a very young age in their formative stages as they begin to think about food.

00:42:13:03 – 00:42:42:23
Nathan Crane
So what do you think is a solution to that for educating kids, children or future generations about where food comes from? Also, having a part in the food production. You know, just 100 years ago, we had a massive percentage of small family farms here in the U.S., I think was after World War Two. Then we had all of the victory gardens that were planted in people’s backyards.

00:42:42:23 – 00:43:06:03
Nathan Crane
I mean, most food was coming from individual or small farms or small family farms, which, which is fantastic. That’s that’s food. That is self-sustainability. It is national security. I mean, now you have these massive monoculture crops. Most of that food here in the States isn’t even for us to eat. It’s GMO corn and soy.

00:43:06:04 – 00:43:07:12
Miyoko Schinner
I think that’s.

00:43:07:19 – 00:43:21:01
Nathan Crane
Yeah, yeah. That’s made for either processed food they put into ultra processed food, you know, high fructose corn sirup, things like that. Or they send it to the factory farm to feed the cows an unnatural diet, I mean corn. And so.

00:43:21:01 – 00:43:23:07
Miyoko Schinner
They go into bags and potato chips or.

00:43:23:07 – 00:43:47:10
Nathan Crane
Yeah, it goes, it goes it chickens. It goes to potato chips, it goes to to cows. And so, I mean, even if you’re eating meat and dairy and eggs that’s conventionally produced, look at the data. I mean, the amount of nutrition that’s in that is so significantly less than what you would get from, you know, regenerative fully grown, you know, animals that are that are free range.

00:43:47:10 – 00:44:04:11
Nathan Crane
And I’m not condoning to eat animals. I but I believe in freedom of choice as well. I’m just saying, look at what happens when we separate ourselves from nature and we have, you know, a few huge companies that are basically doing all of our farming for us. What happens if if you don’t have access to that? I mean, you know.

00:44:04:15 – 00:44:05:10
Miyoko Schinner
Well, I just have.

00:44:05:10 – 00:44:18:12
Nathan Crane
Electricity. You have electricity go out for a day by day. You know, people are going crazy by day three, you have no more food in the grocery stores, right? You have no food independence here in this country anymore.

00:44:18:12 – 00:44:38:21
Miyoko Schinner
But we use dust. We used to have it. We used to have food sovereignty. We used to have food independence. And we need to get back to that. And we need to start educating our children from a young age. We need more community gardens. We need to go into, you know, the so-called underserved communities where they have no access to food.

00:44:39:07 – 00:45:02:13
Miyoko Schinner
There aren’t even any grocery stores. There’s, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken. And they start planning these gardens in vacant lots. I mean, we need to to every neighborhood should have a community farm where they can go and participate in growing or harvest, at least in harvesting or you know, maybe they they don’t want to do that. They they buy it.

00:45:02:13 – 00:45:31:07
Miyoko Schinner
But I mean, that’s that is food security. We’ve got to be able to have access to fresh food locally, everywhere in this country. And kids need to get back into it, get their hands in the soil. I mean, there is a real issue of whether or not we’re going to have enough farmers in the future, because the the the majority of farmers or aging out there controlled by the large corporations being told what to grow.

00:45:31:07 – 00:45:56:03
Miyoko Schinner
So as you were talking about is soy and corn and wheat. And, you know, you just see like miles and miles of that when you’re driving through the Midwest instead of small family farms that were growing probably 30, 40, 50 different types of crops, you know, 60, 70 years ago. So we’ve got monoculture happening and you’re right, if there is electrical outage, if there’s some sort of it’s all tight, it’s too globalized.

00:45:56:16 – 00:46:22:00
Miyoko Schinner
So if something fails at the top, the there’s going to be a massive, massive trickle down effect to every community in the world. So we do need to start localizing food again. I mean, it’s critical to food security, human health, the health of the planet, regeneration of the soil. I mean, it’s just absolutely critical. And I think that starts with teaching kids about it.

00:46:22:01 – 00:46:45:03
Miyoko Schinner
We don’t teach kids about food, how to eat. The USDA school lunch program is criminal. It’s crime. What what is served? I have a neighbor who showed me what their child got for lunch and it was neatly packaged in a plastic bag. There was not one fresh item in it. Every single thing was packaged, it was packaged, processed cheese.

00:46:45:03 – 00:47:15:10
Miyoko Schinner
There were some sort of crackers in there. There was packaged applesauce sauce. I can’t remember. Like it was so bad. Some processed ham or something like that, nothing fresh at all. And when you’re feeding kids and sometimes there are kids, that that’s the only place they eat is in school. And if our schools are saying this is what you’re supposed to eat, how are those kids going to be able to make any decisions about their food choices as they get older?

00:47:15:21 – 00:47:51:15
Miyoko Schinner
Not to mention the fact that they’re not going to able to think clearly or perform well in school on food like that. So what we’re doing today is in the school system is absolutely criminal and it’s because the corporations determined that, you know, we had this massive subsidy program. We have 1.3 billion pilot pounds of cheese that’s stockpiled in by the US government to disseminate through the school lunch program and the snap program to underserved communities.

00:47:51:15 – 00:48:15:18
Miyoko Schinner
Because, you know, the Government has committed to buy a certain amount of dairy from the dairies and if there’s a surplus we just dump it on, on kids and or communities. I mean, it really is criminal and we need to globalize food. We need to re localize it.

00:48:17:13 – 00:48:43:11
Nathan Crane
People who seem to be running the world right now do not want that to happen, you know? So they’re trying to make it more globalized. They’re trying to have more global laws and trying to have, you know, top countries working together to basically control everything that goes on in our lives. And they don’t want us having localized food, localized laws, localized decisions.

00:48:44:14 – 00:49:10:02
Nathan Crane
You know, they’re working very strategically behind the scenes to to actually prevent that from happening. And to your point about school systems, I mean, when I went to school, I had this huge awakening, very young, actually. I mean, I was probably seventh in eighth grade, seventh or eighth grade. I noticed the school, the trucks that were delivering the food to our schools.

00:49:10:08 – 00:49:34:21
Nathan Crane
Some reason I made this connection were the same trucks that were delivering the same food to the prisons. And I remember saying, as school lunch, they’re feeding us prison food. And I got in trouble. You know, they sent me to the principal’s office again. I think I was like, you know, 12, ten, 11, 12 years old. And I just made that connection of like, we’re like little prisoners here in this school and they’re giving us these trays and giving us this prison food.

00:49:35:15 – 00:49:52:00
Nathan Crane
I didn’t know anything about health back then. And in fact, I got really sick as a teenager, you know, eating a standard American diet. And it wasn’t until years later that I was able to reclaim my health, you know, switching my diet. But I’m not condoning that you should feed prisoners bad food. In fact, I’m saying the opposite.

00:49:52:00 – 00:50:17:21
Nathan Crane
You should feed prisoners organic food and give them real food, just like we should in schools. There was a study done years ago, a small study at one school where they basically swapped out all the food for organic food and a lot of whole foods. So a lot of fruits, love, vegetables, things like that. And did an entire school lunch program organic and I can’t remember long they did it for I think they tracked the progress for for the course of one year.

00:50:18:12 – 00:50:58:08
Nathan Crane
And what happened in that school was unbelievable. All of the score testing went up exponentially. The grades went up exponentially. The amount of days missed in school went down exponentially, the amount of fights went down, the amount of your kids getting kicked out of school went down, the amount of kids graduating to the next grade went up. Every psychological, you know, emotional, psychosocial and even health metric that you could measure of kids success in school improved significantly just by changing the food to organic and giving more real food options.

00:50:58:23 – 00:51:00:01
Miyoko Schinner
Which I know that you.

00:51:00:01 – 00:51:12:24
Nathan Crane
And I, to a lot of us who study this and live this way, it’s like, well, of course that would happen. That’s a no brainer. You know, you get the poisons out and this ultra processed food out, the toxins out, of course, they’re going to be better, smarter, think better, have more energy, get less fights, be less depressed.

00:51:13:17 – 00:51:30:01
Nathan Crane
It’s a no brainer, but that’s not where our subsidies are right now. And so as parents, you know, my kids, we provide their lunch every day, right? Like I could never depend on them eating lunch in schools that they go to. So we provide their lunch. And as a parent, that’s kind of what you have to do right now.

00:51:30:01 – 00:51:49:17
Nathan Crane
But also it’s like, what can you do at a larger level? Well, you know, at that point, you have to get involved in and and vote for people who are going to fix that. But that’s hard. You know, it’s hard. It’s like you have to take individual action for your kids. You can’t depend on the schools. And like you said, some people, they don’t have the money to provide their own lunch for their kids.

00:51:49:17 – 00:52:04:20
Nathan Crane
And that’s the only place those kids get to eat is a school. So that’s that’s very sad and very challenging. But for most parents and most kids and I don’t know if it’s most for a large percentage, they do have the choice. And you can choose to give your kids better foods.

00:52:04:20 – 00:52:26:10
Miyoko Schinner
But we have to remember, I mean, first of all, I love that story about that school. I wonder what happened to them after that the year went by. But I mean, I think we have to remember that the middle class is shrinking in this country and there is a growing base of of people that just are having trouble making ends meet.

00:52:27:14 – 00:52:48:09
Miyoko Schinner
And so that the the percentage of kids going to school and trying to get most of their calories from the school, I really do think that that’s going to increase in the future. So this is something that we have to think about. There are organizations that are working on it. I know that in New York City, they’re now, I believe, beginning to take that seriously.

00:52:48:09 – 00:53:14:17
Miyoko Schinner
A lot of schools have more fresh food. But, you know, I think about places like I go to Italy every single year. It’s a country that really fascinates me because they really held on to the old ways of doing things in so many ways and so every school provides lunch and it’s a three course lunch. You have the first course and then you have the second course and the other third course and it’s similar in Japan.

00:53:15:07 – 00:53:40:05
Miyoko Schinner
They have a very fresh you know, you have your soup and your rice and probably, I don’t know, fish, whatever, vegetable oils. And then you have to clean your dishes at the end of the day. And there are places in the world where they actually serve real food. It’s particularly America that is leading the way in terms of processed food.

00:53:40:05 – 00:53:56:19
Miyoko Schinner
So the world over. For example, I was in I think it was Slovenia and we were I was on a bus and we got off the bus at a truck stop and I thought, Oh my God, what am I going to eat at this truck stop? And I go in there and right in front of me is basically a farmer’s market.

00:53:56:24 – 00:54:34:17
Miyoko Schinner
There are just bushels of all these different kinds of fresh fruit and vegetables. They’re actually selling farm fresh goods right there at a truck stop in Slovenia. And then, you know, they they had all these soups and salads and pastas, many of which were naturally vegan. And so the fact is, in many parts of the world, people are eating much more naturally than we are here in the it’s the United States that’s leading the charge in in terms of packaged foods, thinking that this is how we eat.

00:54:35:02 – 00:54:56:00
Miyoko Schinner
And so we have you know, we have our work cut out us. I mean, that’s why we’re falling behind. I believe in education. I don’t know how we rank at this point, but I think we’re pretty far down on the list of them on that list of. You know, educational ranking and other countries are outperforming us. And I don’t think it’s just because of the rigorous ness of their education.

00:54:56:07 – 00:55:18:14
Miyoko Schinner
But what they’re feeding their kids. I mean, if you’re getting a proper meal in Italy, whether it’s, you know, it’s likely not vegan, but at least you’re getting a balanced meal and you’re going to perform much better. And so this is a serious issue that we have to deal with. And I think it’s our collective responsibility. It’s sure if we’re able to pack a lunch for our kids, that’s great.

00:55:18:23 – 00:55:26:05
Miyoko Schinner
But what about all these other kids that don’t have that option? So we really do have to do something at the legislative level.

00:55:26:05 – 00:55:35:12
Nathan Crane
Yeah. And I found that article about the school you’re going to find is interesting. It was actually in your woods in Marin.

00:55:37:03 – 00:55:39:22
Miyoko Schinner
Oh, it was this in a city. It must be Marin City.

00:55:39:22 – 00:56:11:10
Nathan Crane
This was in Sausalito, Marin City School District. Yeah, it was 20, 2015. And they did it harvesting organic, non-GMO and what they found was, well, I remember a different reading, a different time, like it was still only like a dollar 20 or a dollar 70 per meal or something. It was still very affordable really, but one of the stats, 67% decrease in disciplinary problems and an increase in attendance.

00:56:11:16 – 00:56:40:19
Nathan Crane
It just shows you how related your food is to your mental health in these kids. I mean, kids depression is higher than ever. Anxiety is higher than ever. School shootings is higher than ever. You know, all the you know, just a sense of like mental anxiety. And we know I the science is really clear that our food directly impacts our brain and impacts our health system.

00:56:40:19 – 00:56:54:19
Nathan Crane
And when you’re full of ultra processed food with all kinds of chemicals, additives, fillers, high processed sugar, it is going to impact you significantly more negatively. And I mean, this was a great test back to your bacteria.

00:56:54:19 – 00:57:06:05
Miyoko Schinner
And I by the way, this is conscious kitchen. I know them. I know Judy Sholes. I worked with her in the past. She’s great. And they are doing amazing work with schools. Yeah. So I’m very.

00:57:06:05 – 00:57:11:04
Nathan Crane
Curious if they’re still if they’re still doing it. But you said it was conscious schools as her program.

00:57:11:07 – 00:57:14:15
Miyoko Schinner
Launches again is the program that in this province.

00:57:14:17 – 00:57:55:02
Nathan Crane
Yeah so that’s awesome but yeah it’s cool things like that I mean it’s, you know, little, little anecdotal examples like that that are actually pretty significant just goes to show you how important. But if we’re depending on giant corporations to provide all of our food for us again and getting away from more local and regional farms, we’re missing the boat and we’re missing out on a lot of a lot of the potential the health potential sustainability because of the regenerative potential, because even those corporations that do organic and I always recommend people go organic, you know, get rid of 100% of pesticides and chemicals, but you’re going to get rid of a lot of them,

00:57:55:02 – 00:58:20:20
Nathan Crane
which is significantly better for you, the animals and the planet. Right. But even then, they’re doing huge monoculture crops. You know, it’s organic, but it’s monoculture, which is not not, you know, not sustainable for the planet long term. Now, a lot of them do rotational cropping because you have to if you’re doing organic, which is better for the soil, but it’s still not anywhere near ideal.

00:58:20:20 – 00:58:50:20
Miyoko Schinner
Oh, now we need to get back to really supporting crop diversity, expanding to more heritage crops, heirloom crops, etc. and, and permaculture. So I mean, everything you’re saying is absolutely spot on. And, you know, I think this is going to have to be a grassroots movement because that’s really the only way to grassroots and legislative actions are the only way to really fight these large corporate interests.

00:58:50:20 – 00:59:01:05
Miyoko Schinner
Unfortunately, there’s a big segment of the so-called vegan movement that is sort of following in the corporate footsteps. And and it’s it’s unfortunate.

00:59:03:00 – 00:59:24:09
Nathan Crane
So I want to ask you earlier, but we kind of went on a couple of different tangents there, which was wonderful. But I want to ask you about animals and souls. Do you believe animals have a soul all do you believe all animals have a soul? And if so, why or why not?

00:59:25:17 – 00:59:44:16
Miyoko Schinner
Okay. Well, we’re getting into some deep philosophy here, I would say. Yes, I do believe that all animals have a soul just to give you a bear insight into my my religious background. I was raised a Buddhist.

00:59:46:03 – 00:59:48:13
Nathan Crane
And I’m assuming you’re Japanese, right?

00:59:49:02 – 00:59:49:19
Miyoko Schinner
I’m Japanese.

00:59:49:20 – 00:59:50:22
Nathan Crane
Whose name? Yeah, yeah.

00:59:51:15 – 01:00:30:02
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah. And I can’t say that I’m a practicing Buddhist, but there is a a scripture, you know, there are in the in the the Lotus Sutra. It does say that all all beings are sentient. All living beings on the planet are sentient and possess a soul. And I think I have always believed that it’s just sort of a we don’t there is no God in Buddhism, there is no exterior, external deity that we pray to because the Buddha lives within each of us, that Buddha is a state of consciousness that is attainable.

01:00:30:02 – 01:00:58:23
Miyoko Schinner
All living beings are all there in all of us, or it is an it resides in all of us. But I have also seen the soul in various animals. I’m going to just tell you one little story about consciousness in animals and their ability to care about others. So I think I told you earlier there was a goat that was at my window, Madeleine, who was very, very sick at one time and almost died.

01:00:58:23 – 01:01:16:17
Miyoko Schinner
And she I cared for her in my house for about two months. She went through this weird period where she didn’t eat for about a month and yet she wouldn’t die. It was very, very weird. She didn’t drink water and nothing. No one really. She went. He was in the hospital. No one knew what’s wrong with her. They’d never seen anything like this before.

01:01:17:19 – 01:01:34:12
Miyoko Schinner
But every time I talked about, you know, in front of her, we talk about euthanasia. She would like her eyes would pop wide open. All of a sudden she just jump up and she go over to a houseplant and nibble a leaf or a little bit, and then she collapse again. But it was as if she was telling us, No, I don’t put me down.

01:01:34:12 – 01:01:36:00
Miyoko Schinner
I’m not ready to die. Well, in the.

01:01:36:00 – 01:01:48:14
Nathan Crane
Book and goats have the most crazy eyes and the most human and the most human screams you’ll ever hear. It is almost eerie. You’re like, Is there a human in that goat right.

01:01:48:14 – 01:01:48:24
Miyoko Schinner
There.

01:01:49:13 – 01:01:51:20
Nathan Crane
That seems to have ghosts? Oh, yeah, it’s crazy.

01:01:51:22 – 01:02:16:14
Miyoko Schinner
It’s. Yeah, it’s crazy. But anyway, so we didn’t put her down in the one day. I guess she decided she was going to be well and she started eating again and she came back to life. And then she got very, very aggressive for a while. She headbutted a donkey who was, you know, three times her size. And I think it was to prove that, hey, I’m back, I’m alive, not going down.

01:02:16:23 – 01:02:32:02
Miyoko Schinner
And so one day I took the goats on a hike and we were up on a ridge and there was a big ravine. And Madeleine decided, I guess she was trying to prove to me that she was fully alive and she started attacking me and she was up rearing up on her hind legs and like coming down with her horns.

01:02:32:12 – 01:02:46:19
Miyoko Schinner
And I started screaming as she would not stop. And I really thought that I was going to be that sanctuary casualty that you read about once. I thought, this is it. Like I am like I’ve never feared for my life. Like I did.

01:02:46:19 – 01:02:51:20
Nathan Crane
That woman killed, mauled by goat that she saved you like, oh, god.

01:02:52:02 – 01:03:20:16
Miyoko Schinner
Oh, no, exactly. But out of the blue, Rufus and Reggie appeared at my side and chased away Madeleine and saved my life. Rufus and Reggie are two other goats, and they were way at the top of a hill. And they. They saw me being attacked, and they literally ran down to chase her away and protect me. And then as we walked down the hill, they never left my side.

01:03:21:11 – 01:03:38:12
Miyoko Schinner
And this is not typical behavior. But, you know, they knew I was in danger. They care about me. It wasn’t about food, you know, it wasn’t like, hey, they came down, they saw that I had a snack or anything like that, but they saw that I was in danger and they wanted to make sure that no harm came to me.

01:03:40:09 – 01:04:07:13
Miyoko Schinner
So do I think that animals have souls? I think they have souls. But beyond that, I think they have consciousness. I think they have awareness. I think they have understanding. I think they have intelligence that we have underestimated which actually shows how stupid we are because we think that animals that don’t speak our language are incapable of language, and that is absolutely false.

01:04:08:06 – 01:04:19:03
Miyoko Schinner
In fact, it’s interesting how so many animals learn our language, but we can’t learn theirs. So who’s really stupid in this argument?

01:04:19:14 – 01:04:37:15
Nathan Crane
That’s a funny way to look at it. It’s true. I mean, it’s so true. I mean, they learn our language, but we don’t learn theirs and they speak a language. You know, it’s it is clear. I mean, they are communicating with us. I can see it in my own dogs. You know, I have two dogs, the brother and sister and I’ve learned to communicate with them.

01:04:37:15 – 01:05:00:09
Nathan Crane
I mean, when they want something, need something, when they just want love or need love or like, you know, something’s hurting, whatever. It’s like I can send in anybody who, you know, spends time around animals, has the same experience where you can sense kind of what they need. You know, it’s almost sometimes an invisible underlying communication. It’s it’s intuitive more than it is actual.

01:05:00:09 – 01:05:34:07
Nathan Crane
And I think that’s the language. It’s an intuitive language that we have to learn with animals. And when you listen, you can actually feel or hear what their what they need or what they’re sharing with you and your story, you know, the goats saving you. It’s funny, but it’s also so amazing because there are so many stories like that that I’ve watched online that are inspiring, you know, whether it’s dolphins that have saved a surfer from a shark attack, you know, this person doesn’t raise the dolphins.

01:05:34:07 – 01:05:52:21
Nathan Crane
The dolphins saw that the shark was going for the human and the dolphins attacked the shark and send it away, you know, why did they save that surfer? You know, people who have raised like, you know, saved lions and then raised them and then led them into the wild and then come back years later and the lion tackles them and gives them a big hug.

01:05:52:21 – 01:06:13:16
Nathan Crane
You know, looks like he’s going to eat them. And instead, it, you know, it hugs the person. You know, normally it would be a line that you’d be afraid of is going to eat you, you know, that you have that bond where does that relationship come from? How can lions, horses, dogs, cows, goats, sheep, pigs, even chickens, anybody who’s ever raised chickens?

01:06:13:16 – 01:06:28:14
Nathan Crane
We had chickens for a few years know that chickens can have really interesting, you know, unique personalities and and can even get close to I mean, go look on YouTube and look at the chickens and they’re like playing piano and stuff. I’m like, wow.

01:06:28:14 – 01:06:28:23
Miyoko Schinner
Yes.

01:06:30:10 – 01:06:49:14
Nathan Crane
I’m like, chickens are so stupid. And then I see I’m playing. I’m like, whoa, they’re actually pretty smart, you know? And so I have to agree, I really think animals now, except for fish, I don’t know if fish have souls. That’s hard for me. I was I’m partly joking, but.

01:06:51:09 – 01:06:53:01
Miyoko Schinner
You just see the movie The Octopus.

01:06:53:01 – 01:06:55:22
Nathan Crane
Oh, my octopus. Teacher said to.

01:06:55:22 – 01:06:57:15
Miyoko Schinner
Him, Yeah, my octopus teacher. Right.

01:06:57:15 – 01:07:20:06
Nathan Crane
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I agree. I think all animals actually have souls and have consciousness, fish or not, you know, aquatic animals. Any animal you ever spend time with has a soul. And that’s the hard part for me. It’s like, how could I ever, number one, knowing health wise I could be vegan or vegetarian or whole food plant based and thrive for the rest of my life.

01:07:20:06 – 01:07:38:10
Nathan Crane
I know that most people don’t know that. Most people are not aware of that. Most people don’t realize that you can be very healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet or whole food plant based diet. Yes, you may need a supplement, a few things, but we have that today. Access to it easily. Yes. You need to learn about which foods to eat and which ones not to.

01:07:38:16 – 01:07:54:21
Nathan Crane
Yes, you may have some gut issues with certain foods and you have to experiment with that. Yes, these are real problems that people experience today, but these are problems that we have answers to. We have solutions, too. Yeah, you can take a B12 supplement. If you don’t get enough sunshine, you can take a vitamin D supplement. These are simple things.

01:07:54:21 – 01:08:16:13
Nathan Crane
We have access to today and you can thrive on on these diets. But at the end of the day, when. So, number one, I know health wise I can thrive for the rest of my life. Number two, I could never see myself eating another animal again because I, I believe they have souls and I’ve seen that they have consciousness.

01:08:16:13 – 01:08:34:05
Nathan Crane
And it’s like, how could I intentionally contribute into the murder of that animal just to feed my body when I know I can get everything I need from plants and or medical supplements if I need it, you know, it’s like, how could I do that? I just don’t I don’t have that in me anymore.

01:08:34:05 – 01:08:39:11
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah. Even if you eat meat, I mean, it’s shown that a lot of people that eat meat or vitamin B12 deficient.

01:08:39:15 – 01:08:51:00
Nathan Crane
Right, Andy as well. And Vitamin D deficiency as well. Yeah, you have to have a well-planned omnivore diet oftentimes with supplements if you’re going to thrive long term as well for sure.

01:08:52:01 – 01:08:53:23
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah, right. Right.

01:08:53:23 – 01:09:14:04
Nathan Crane
And so. So you believe animals have souls and consciousness? I do, too. I think anyone that spends time around animals now. How do you feel about I saw this woman post the other day. She was riding a horse and, you know, a bunch of vegans that follow her, like started posting a bunch of hate. How could you do that to the horse?

01:09:14:04 – 01:09:35:16
Nathan Crane
How could you ride a horse? And Dara and I’m like, I’m I’m more on the side of look, I’ve spent time around horses. My, my aunt and cousins had horses growing up. I used to ride. I’ve ridden horses bareback. I’ve was a kid riding on a horse with my sister. And I’ve seen the relationship you can have with horses.

01:09:35:16 – 01:09:55:20
Nathan Crane
And they actually I feel like they have a sense of purpose with the person who is caretaking them or their owner, you could call them and letting you ride on them and having some enjoyment in a purpose there. And so I know this is kind of polarizing for vegan. It gets to the extreme, veganism can go to the extreme.

01:09:55:20 – 01:10:21:16
Nathan Crane
And that’s that’s the thing I’m trying to do now is like, hey, look, let’s find a balance point. Let’s bring people. Buddhism specifically is about balance, right? It’s about equanimity and it’s about finding neutrality. I’ve studied Buddhism as well. I love Buddhism. I find caveat. I find it funny when I talk to Christians where they think Buddhism is a false deity because Buddha is a false God that you you pray to.

01:10:21:16 – 01:10:44:13
Nathan Crane
And it’s like Buddhism has. Buddha is not God in Buddhism at all. You miss the point. You obviously don’t understand Buddhism. You should study it before you make claims like that. Actually, Buddhism is not claiming that Buddha is God in your brain. You’re a false deity. I wanted to mention that because I thought that was funny, but I went off on that track and I forgot what I was even saying.

01:10:45:06 – 01:10:46:21
Miyoko Schinner
You were talking about horses and mean.

01:10:46:21 – 01:10:53:17
Nathan Crane
Yeah. So where do you feel about horses? I mean, what do you feel about like? You know, raising animals, being with animals, riding horses, things like that.

01:10:55:07 – 01:11:32:01
Miyoko Schinner
You know, there is a woman who calls herself the vegan cowboy and a cowgirl and she has a different philosophy about horses. She’s probably more aligned with you. I am surrounded by equestrian centers because I’m out in the country here and, you know, just about everybody here rides I rode when I was a child. Even after I became a vegetarian, I think when I was 12, I still rode a little bit, not a but you know, what I would say about horses is the saddest thing is that even among equestrians, the average horse changes ownership, quote unquote, five times.

01:11:32:20 – 01:12:05:05
Miyoko Schinner
So people get rid of their horses and then they pass them down. And it often happens with geriatric horses that can’t be ridden anymore. So I think that is the hardest thing. I mean, I do believe that let’s say you have a horse that you love, that loves you, and you have a bond and the horse may enjoy going on a hike with you being ridden like, you know, a couple hundred pounds on a, whatever, 1500 pound animal probably isn’t a whole lot.

01:12:06:08 – 01:12:44:01
Miyoko Schinner
And it could be mutually enjoyable. But the fact remains that horses are utilized brutalized in horse racing and pulling buggies in New York City as well. As I see lot of sad horses standing alone in paddocks. When I drive down the road here, they’re just standing there with her head hung low without a friend, or there they stand in a stall all day long waiting for someone to come and take them out for for a run or a romp.

01:12:44:19 – 01:13:09:07
Miyoko Schinner
And so that is my biggest issue is, you know, what is that level of keeping your horse? A lot of equestrians here believe that. Oh, my horses. You know, a thoroughbred Arabian whatever. And I won’t allow him to associate with other horses. It’s just he’s got to be by himself. I don’t think the horse feels that way. The horses want to be alone.

01:13:09:18 – 01:13:33:13
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah, but. But there are a lot of uppity equestrians that believe, you know, they’re they’re horses for show, right? And therefore, it has to be taken care of and it has to be alone in its stall. And I just don’t think from the I don’t think any animal wants to be alone. I don’t think any animal wants to stand in a stall all day long or in a paddock by himself or herself.

01:13:34:07 – 01:13:55:09
Miyoko Schinner
And so if a horse can be given a good life and you take care of that horse your entire life and not get rid of it when it’s aged out and no longer able to be ridden, when the veterinary costs start to rise, then I think it is possible for a horse and a human to have a relationship and a bond.

01:13:56:06 – 01:13:56:16
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah.

01:13:57:04 – 01:14:28:20
Nathan Crane
That’s beautiful. I think it’s I think that’s the nuance and the context that’s needed on a on a bigger scale around all of our relationships with animals. Right. Because honey from bees, for example. So I actually consider honey to be vegan. Most vegans would disagree with me. But the reason being is I, I, I experimented with, I live in San Diego with a, with a wild beehive that was actually in my backyard in between this fence.

01:14:29:08 – 01:14:52:24
Nathan Crane
And, and I had this theory that like, hey, if I have a good communication and harmony with the bees, with animals in general, they’re happy to share their food with me. And we know honey is an incredible medicine. We know it is incredibly healing, you know, for humans and for bees. We know it’s their food. But we also know on the commercial side of things, bees are raped and pillaged.

01:14:52:24 – 01:15:15:06
Nathan Crane
And it’s awful just commercial, you know, animals raising is terrible commercial chickens and eggs. It’s terrible how they’re treated. And they, you know, they get a little tiny. They don’t get to move their box or from their little tiny box their whole life. And it is very inhumane. But I believe there is a humane way to do some things like vegetarian, who eats eggs.

01:15:15:06 – 01:15:37:20
Nathan Crane
You know, you can have free range chickens that are happy moving around the entire property. And, you know, we went to Mexico, my wife’s family has chickens down there. They roam the whole property, you know, and they lay eggs in a few places. And, you know, her family eats eggs and and then those chickens sleep up in the tree at night, you know, like those are that’s like someone living in harmony with the animals and those animals are providing.

01:15:38:11 – 01:15:47:16
Nathan Crane
But back to the Beast story. So I actually reached my hand into the hive as a wild hive, mind you. And I was.

01:15:48:04 – 01:15:49:08
Miyoko Schinner
A bright man.

01:15:49:08 – 01:16:10:12
Nathan Crane
I was intuitive. Yeah, I was. You know, I was I had to keep my my nerves under control, intuitively communicating with them, saying, hey, you know, asking them, may I have some of your honey? May I take some of your comb? And like, you know, having this conversation, I broke off a piece of the comb, pulled it out, and it was, you know, small well, they had four or five huge combs.

01:16:10:12 – 01:16:29:01
Nathan Crane
I took 5% of it, right. Not very much. And had bees all over my arm and my bite. No smoke, no nothing. Right. I wanted to prove this to myself. This theory that I had crawled all over me. I put the calm down, you know, kind of swiped off some of the bees very slowly. Didn’t hurt any of them.

01:16:30:00 – 01:17:01:11
Nathan Crane
They eventually left the comb and then I ate it right there with them. And I and I had this, like, realization of like they I felt like they were happy to share that abundance with me in that situation. Okay. And by the way, I’m not encouraging anyone to go out and do this. The reason I took this video down, I took this video down from YouTube ten or 12 years ago when I did it a long time as 12, 13 years ago was because I went out another time and a different day and I was like I was like, okay, here we go again.

01:17:01:11 – 01:17:21:09
Nathan Crane
So same thing. Bees all over me, no problem. But when I went to take a piece of the comb off it, it was too big of a piece. Okay. I got greedy, I think is what happened. And then when I tried to pull it through the little fence, it wouldn’t fit. And so I think what I did was either drop it or something.

01:17:21:09 – 01:17:43:17
Nathan Crane
When I pulled my hand through, like I, I literally felt and heard however many hundreds of thousands of bees drop. And it was like, okay, I’m dead. You know, I immediately took off running and I got stung like 20 times all over my body, all over my head, my neck, all over. And it was brutal. And it was a big lesson for me.

01:17:43:17 – 01:18:03:06
Nathan Crane
It was a big lesson like, yeah, they may be happy to share their honey with you, but if you take too much and you get greedy, that’s when you cross over the line. And so there are beekeepers who take good care of their bees, who never take too much, you know, and their bees are free around organic orchards and they don’t travel across the country.

01:18:03:12 – 01:18:27:04
Nathan Crane
They don’t take home the GMO crops. And it’s like these are people who live in harmony with their bees. And in that case, I think that’s the most vegan thing you could do. You know, the bees go to the nectar. I mean, think about a divine nectar from a flower drink. It have a magical God given process that creates honey and then spits out this honey that’s this incredible medicine.

01:18:27:10 – 01:18:45:16
Nathan Crane
And they always produce way more than enough. And as long as you never take too much, they always have enough for more than enough for for them in their babies. So I know many vegans would disagree with me on that, but That’s that’s been my perspective. I think you can extrapolate that to all of our relationships with animals like you, with the goats, for example.

01:18:45:16 – 01:18:46:02
Nathan Crane
You know.

01:18:46:07 – 01:19:10:08
Miyoko Schinner
It’s it’s very, very nuanced. I mean, it really is because is that something that’s I mean, the thing is that humankind, humans always want to replicate things in a commercial manner. And so the question is, can that be commercialized in a way that everyone can honey at any time and and you can’t? And that’s the same thing with, you know, whether it’s dairy or meat or anything.

01:19:10:08 – 01:19:17:18
Miyoko Schinner
I mean, if you go back to doing things where you’re living with nature, you can’t commercialize it so that everyone has access at all times.

01:19:17:18 – 01:19:41:17
Nathan Crane
The only now local I would say I would push back a little bit on that because if you’re supporting a local organic farm, you know where they’re, you know, you know, have a good relationship in that sense. Then then you can do it on a smaller level, right? But not on a large commercial level like nationwide. It, it has to go back to our first or what we were talking about earlier, like small local farms.

01:19:42:15 – 01:20:02:10
Miyoko Schinner
Right, right. Small local farms. I mean, but if it’s still animal agriculture, you know, even the small local producers will tell you that it’s going to be much more expensive. And so you’re only going to be able to feed a certain percentage of people of a certain class. It’s not it can’t be done in a way that it can feed the masses.

01:20:02:10 – 01:20:33:21
Miyoko Schinner
The only thing that you can grow enough to feed the masses or plants. And if you do, if we go back to small local farms, growing heritage crops, heirloom crops, you know, crop diversity, we still can feed everyone in America. We still can feed everyone everywhere with less land, less resources. It’s Hard to do that when you’re trying to maintain balance with any sort of animal.

01:20:34:10 – 01:20:52:11
Miyoko Schinner
Let’s go back to chickens. You were talking about the chickens you saw in Mexico and you know, it is true. I mean, I was in Cuba recently and yeah, there’s chickens running around and pig people picking up their eggs. And but at the same, you know, we also had chickens here at the sanctuary. They’re all rescues from factory farms.

01:20:52:20 – 01:21:20:01
Miyoko Schinner
And the fact is, chickens don’t lay eggs in the winter. So you live in a warm climate, you know, tropical climate that’s warm year round. They may later they may their jungle fowl, so they may leg eggs year round, but in the northern hemisphere, chickens went in the wintertime, their body sort of shut down. And you may not you’re going to have to keep feeding them if you have a backyard flock, you still have to feed your flock.

01:21:20:07 – 01:21:41:17
Miyoko Schinner
Even if they’re not laying very often, you know, they may start laying only once, I don’t know, once every two weeks, once every month, whatever. You might not get any eggs in the winter, and the older they get, the fewer eggs they lay. So if you’ve got a chicken that lives their natural lifespan, which is 8 to 10 years, by then they’re not laying any eggs.

01:21:41:17 – 01:22:10:20
Miyoko Schinner
Or they might lay an egg once every six months, and you still have to feed that chicken if you’re going to live in harmony with nature and and if you’re going to treat the animal humanely. So it becomes that becomes a very expensive egg. If you get that egg once every six months, that’s an expensive egg. And most people don’t have the resources for just four chickens just to walk around the yard and hunt and peck and eat worms and not be fed supplementary.

01:22:11:06 – 01:22:11:20
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah. Yeah.

01:22:11:20 – 01:22:14:11
Nathan Crane
They’re very need a good sized property for that. Absolutely.

01:22:14:24 – 01:22:15:20
Miyoko Schinner
Like gets.

01:22:16:03 – 01:22:16:23
Nathan Crane
Multiple acres.

01:22:16:23 – 01:22:37:00
Miyoko Schinner
Yes. Oh yeah. So there’s a lot there. There’s a backyard chicken movement right now. A lot of people have that. But I can’t tell you how many chickens we have also rescued from these backyard chicken operations where somebody will call us and they say, hey, you know, I just got some new chick, some new chicks. And it turns out a couple of them are roosters.

01:22:37:00 – 01:22:57:06
Miyoko Schinner
And we our city ordinance won’t let us have roosters. And so what do we do? Or, you know, hey, my chickens are old. They’re not laying eggs anymore. How can you take our chickens so we can get some new ones? So, once again, you know, it’s a very nuanced discussion. It’s not just factory farms are terrible, but backyard hens are fine.

01:22:57:15 – 01:23:02:05
Miyoko Schinner
I mean, that’s not the case either.

01:23:02:05 – 01:23:03:15
Nathan Crane
How do you feel about spiders?

01:23:05:13 – 01:23:12:14
Miyoko Schinner
Well. Oh, I leave them alone. I, I carefully remove her from the house the other day.

01:23:13:19 – 01:23:16:09
Nathan Crane
You don’t kill them. You don’t kill the spider. You don’t kill them. No.

01:23:16:09 – 01:23:17:06
Miyoko Schinner
I try to fly to.

01:23:17:07 – 01:23:21:12
Nathan Crane
Like, a black widow with eggs in your bathroom. What would you do?

01:23:22:12 – 01:23:51:16
Miyoko Schinner
Oh, my God, I’d freak out. I haven’t seen that yet. If I did see a black widow. I don’t know if it was a Black Widow or not. I couldn’t turn it over, but I just very carefully slid up, put a cup over it, slid a paper under it, and then took it outside. I’ve had scorpions in the house before, not in this house, but in another house, and I’ve just kind of captured and removed them.

01:23:51:24 – 01:23:57:20
Nathan Crane
You know what? I don’t think you know the one critter insect, animal or whatever. I don’t know if I call it an animal.

01:23:58:17 – 01:23:59:10
Miyoko Schinner
Cockroach.

01:23:59:10 – 01:24:18:07
Nathan Crane
That I don’t think no cockroaches. I don’t think there’s bad as we make them out to be. They’re just a big beetle, you know, it’s just we have all these ideas about them that make them seem bad. Now, in what I mosquitoes. I don’t think mosquitoes have souls. I think they’re the most soulless, bloodsucking creature on the planet.

01:24:18:12 – 01:24:29:02
Miyoko Schinner
Okay. I don’t know if I got I got stuck a couple days ago and two places and. Oh, my God, no, I’m not a fan of mosquitoes. I will I will definitely smack them.

01:24:30:02 – 01:24:51:03
Nathan Crane
No, but I mean, it’s an interesting conversation. Like if because I also practice compassion for animals and I have saved many, many, many spiders, my kids know, my wife knows, like, you know, she’ll stomp them but I’ve most spiders critters things like that. Bugs, beetles, all that’s like I pick them up or I’ll put them on a piece of paper and take them outside.

01:24:51:08 – 01:25:17:01
Nathan Crane
No problem. The the other day, this was a while ago, you know, there was a big black widow in our bathroom that had laid eggs and kids. I was just like, I can’t have that. I’m sorry. I can not have the the risk of all, you know, thousands of these spiders being born, the spider moving, you know, potentially biting one of my kids like I just as a father, I couldn’t do it.

01:25:17:01 – 01:25:37:20
Nathan Crane
And I killed I killed that one. And those eggs, you know, and I felt bad about it, but I still did it. It’s like that’s my protective nature as a father. I have to look out for my kids first. But I think in most, you know, that’s that’s obviously an extreme example. But I think, you know, compassion is compassion and we’re not going to be perfect 10% of the time.

01:25:37:20 – 01:25:45:04
Nathan Crane
But I think the act of thinking and practicing as much as we possibly can goes a long way now.

01:25:45:04 – 01:26:07:15
Miyoko Schinner
Absolutely no. I mean, we’re never going to be perfect beings. And, you know, once again, you have to determine where you are time and place and decide what the right action is, depending on that. And it might, in my mean, killing Black Widow and I will not judge you for that, Nathan. I would have to say.

01:26:08:06 – 01:26:21:23
Nathan Crane
Well, thank you. It’s okay if you do. People get judge me. It’s okay. But so you you you founded a company called Miyako Creamery, right?

01:26:21:23 – 01:26:22:07
Miyoko Schinner
Uh huh.

01:26:22:11 – 01:26:37:08
Nathan Crane
Which is funny because I had some of that some of your some of the Miyoko vegan butter on my toast this morning. Not even you not even making the connection that we were having an interview today.

01:26:37:20 – 01:26:38:22
Miyoko Schinner
Okay, that’s funny.

01:26:39:00 – 01:26:46:22
Nathan Crane
And it’s my it’s my, it’s it’s addictive is so good. It is so good. So I wanted to come up with that recipe yourself. Like, how did that work?

01:26:47:03 – 01:27:10:13
Miyoko Schinner
I did. I did. And it was based on a recipe I published in my book, The Homemade Vegan Pantry, and I have new versions on my YouTube channel. I have a way my recipe for making your own spreadable vegan butter so you can learn how to make it yourself. But it was really the first butter in the marketplace that used to cultured milk.

01:27:10:13 – 01:27:16:20
Miyoko Schinner
So in other words, a fermented milk which gives it that sort of a little bit of tang, sort of a European style. Yeah.

01:27:17:06 – 01:27:34:07
Nathan Crane
It’s so good. It’s it’s coconut oil. It’s simple. I like the reason it’s organic, which is we buy as much organic as we possibly can. It’s it’s coconut oil. It’s simple coconut oil. Salt. What is the cashew? Cashew milk? Is it fermented cashew.

01:27:35:13 – 01:27:36:15
Miyoko Schinner
Fermented cashew milk.

01:27:36:24 – 01:27:42:09
Nathan Crane
With with with probiotics. Basically Is it lactobacillus or what do you ferment it with?

01:27:43:00 – 01:27:57:06
Miyoko Schinner
It’s a lactic acid bacteria that lowers the H and turns it into something that’s like buttermilk and then that gets churned with the coconut oil. To produce that butter is delicious.

01:27:57:06 – 01:28:00:09
Nathan Crane
And the chea, I think you guys have a cheese, too, right? Isn’t there a cheese?

01:28:00:09 – 01:28:32:16
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah, there’s a bunch of cheeses. I’m no longer involved in the company. We separated winner a different ways about a year ago. A year and a half ago. But yeah, we have a we had well they still have cheeses that are mostly cashew based and they’re all fermented. Everything was organic. I think it’s still organic and yeah, I, I don’t know what.

01:28:32:16 – 01:28:34:05
Nathan Crane
So you’re no longer part of the company, huh?

01:28:35:00 – 01:28:49:17
Miyoko Schinner
No, I’m no longer part of the company, so I know I, you know, I was at the time. You are. What you eat was filmed. Mm and there’s I talk a lot about the company and the products, but I am no longer involved. So.

01:28:49:17 – 01:28:52:11
Nathan Crane
But uh huh. Go ahead.

01:28:52:11 – 01:29:15:19
Miyoko Schinner
No, I am working on a new project. I have a a new cookbook I’m working on. I’m under contract on called the Vegan Creamery. And that will have all these new formulas, new cheeses that I have figured out how to make mostly without cashews, really. I’ve learned how to make curds out of the milk of all different types of seeds and legumes.

01:29:15:19 – 01:29:22:02
Miyoko Schinner
So yeah, there’s some, I would say, next generation cheeses and butters in that book.

01:29:22:24 – 01:29:35:05
Nathan Crane
I’ve watched some YouTube videos. It seems like you you really have such a strong passion for culinary arts, for the culinary arts, for cooking, for being creative with food. Would you say that’s a huge passion of yours?

01:29:36:16 – 01:29:46:05
Miyoko Schinner
It’s it’s just how my brain works. You know, I’m always thinking about food, so who doesn’t do this? I about.

01:29:46:05 – 01:30:07:24
Nathan Crane
Yeah, you’re thinking about creating food. Most of us are just thinking about eating food. You know, I’m already thinking about my next meal, about the twin experiment. So, yeah, you’re in that Netflix docu series. You are what you eat, right? The experiment about twins. Tons of controversy around it right now, rightly so. I think they I think the study was really poorly done.

01:30:07:24 – 01:30:18:17
Nathan Crane
But what is your what was your like thoughts about being in in docu series? And what do you know about kind of the controversy around the experiment itself? What are your thoughts around it in general?

01:30:19:15 – 01:30:46:05
Miyoko Schinner
You know, I’m not really that familiar with the controversy itself. I know some people say it wasn’t thorough. I think it was published, it was peer reviewed, but I didn’t actually read it. So I can’t really comment on that. I thought it was a very entertaining series and it was uplifting. Unlike his previous movie, The Game Changers, I think, really spoke to athletes and men.

01:30:46:11 – 01:31:10:11
Miyoko Schinner
This one really spoke to a broader audience and gave people, I think, a little bit of hope that they, too, could change their diet. You know, if these twins could do it, they could do it. And it was done with humor and all of that. So I thought it was that was really well done as a as a series.

01:31:10:11 – 01:31:45:02
Miyoko Schinner
It I don’t know how much I should say about it, but when he first approached me about it, there was a slightly different concept. And then I think it evolved over into this one. And I think, you know, I think it was better. Hopefully, you know, I kind of wish that there would have been more emphasis on how to prepare these healthier foods rather than there were the prepackaged foods of the the the the twins got the first month and then they had to learn how to cook on their own.

01:31:45:13 – 01:32:09:22
Miyoko Schinner
But more resources on, on, on how to prepare foods on your own, because I think at the end of the day, we have to stop relying on packaged foods and we need to get back into our kitchens and learn how to cook and what are the shortcuts to doing so, etc.. And that’s something that, you know, maybe there’s a sequel that could come out that could help people.

01:32:11:05 – 01:32:32:23
Nathan Crane
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was cool that you are in the Netflix series, number one. Oh, yeah. Awesome. You know, and I think and I agree, I think it was well-done. I think it was interesting. I think it was entertaining. It was a great way to to kind of show people, you know, what’s possible as most of these people had no desire, you know, to even eat a vegan diet.

01:32:33:14 – 01:33:08:15
Nathan Crane
Some are like, no, I don’t want to. I don’t want to. And then, you know, and then some of them enjoyed it. And so it was, I think as a Netflix docu series, you know, it was it was well-done. The criticisms come from the science itself, the experiment itself. And so for people don’t know, you know, the the scientific study that was done that led to the docu series created around the scientific study was, you know, comparing biomarkers, a few biomarkers of what happens.

01:33:08:15 – 01:33:31:04
Nathan Crane
We need a vegan diet versus a omnivore diet. And was all planned, you know, it was controlled, the meals, the calories, etc., for the first part. And then they made their own meals for the next part right. And the vegan diet showed more weight loss, lower LDL levels, better fasting insulin. So most of the biomarkers were.

01:33:31:04 – 01:33:33:14
Miyoko Schinner
Butter me longer telomeres.

01:33:33:14 – 01:34:03:02
Nathan Crane
Longer telomeres, most biomarkers were better on the vegan diet. The problem is it was not controlled properly. The vegan diet, the vegan meals, they were given less calories than the omnivore, omnivore omnivore meals, which was a really stupid mistake. Or where people think, well, it was intentionally biased towards veganism because the scientists, the doctor who led the study is a vegan and promotes veganism.

01:34:03:02 – 01:34:17:18
Nathan Crane
He’s a I think he’s a professor at Harvard, if I’m not mistaken. And so, yeah, it’s like the problem doing something like that is it just throws the whole baby out with the bathwater. Because if you give people a few hundred less calories.

01:34:18:11 – 01:34:19:17
Miyoko Schinner
You’re going to lose weight.

01:34:19:17 – 01:34:44:24
Nathan Crane
And if you lose weight, all your biomarkers go up and so forth. So it’s like, why did he make such a stupid mistake? Like a mistake is like, well, maybe it was intentional. And then that throws the whole experiment off and everyone just throws it all away. Oh, it’s it’s worthless. I don’t think it’s worthless. I think I think the big takeaway there is you can thrive on a vegan if you control calories, you can lose weight and improve all your biomarkers on a vegan diet.

01:34:44:24 – 01:34:56:10
Nathan Crane
And so, you know, people can take that away as a positive, but I just think that was poorly planned and executed on that part. I mean, they should have had equal calories. I mean, period.

01:34:56:14 – 01:35:00:12
Miyoko Schinner
They really should have equal calories and equal macronutrient.

01:35:00:12 – 01:35:11:11
Nathan Crane
100%. Yeah. And so that was the other thing is actually the vegan I think that study also the vegans had less protein.

01:35:11:11 – 01:35:31:23
Miyoko Schinner
Okay, let’s talk about that because the average American gets twice as much protein as they actually need and that could be contributing to disease as well, too. And we have live in a protein obsessed country everyone is focusing on, but where do I get my protein? And you look at any vegan product? Pete The first question people ask is, what about the protein, right?

01:35:32:23 – 01:35:46:24
Miyoko Schinner
And you know, I don’t know. I never think about protein. I don’t eat packaged foods for the most part. I’ve been a vegan for 40 years and. I just eat plants. I, you know, Whole Foods. And I never think about whether or not I’m getting enough protein.

01:35:48:10 – 01:35:51:09
Nathan Crane
Was it a typical meal look like for you?

01:35:51:09 – 01:36:14:01
Miyoko Schinner
Well, I had kind of an odd breakfast. I mean, oftentimes I’ll have like a overnight oats with lots of different things in it. Chia amp and all of that stuff. So all the so-called Super Foods, but I’m also Japanese. So this morning I had rice with seaweed and leftover sauteed bitter melon with tofu. So but that seems like an odd breakfast.

01:36:15:15 – 01:36:42:14
Miyoko Schinner
But I eat very simply. I eat mainly white rice, you know, it’s my comfort food is what kind of calms me down. A lot of vegetables from the garden. I eat legumes, I eat tofu. You know, I try to eat some sort of legume, lentils or beans almost every single day. Whole grains. Although I do eat not white rice, I eat something.

01:36:42:14 – 01:37:07:14
Miyoko Schinner
I’ll hire rice, which is a partially milled rice. So They leave the germ intact. So has the nutrients of brown rice, but doesn’t have a whole just because I like my rice to be light and fluffy. So but so it’s a very I eat a very simple diet for the most part. I don’t buy a lot of packaged goods.

01:37:07:14 – 01:37:24:10
Miyoko Schinner
Yeah. So tonight I don’t know what I’ll eat. I’ll have to, it’ll, it depends on what I have in the fridge, what I can, what I feel like eating from the garden. I don’t have it all planned out, you know, I used to feed a family. I’m a, I’m a, I’m by myself now all alone. So I only have myself to feed.

01:37:24:10 – 01:37:25:12
Miyoko Schinner
So my my diet.

01:37:25:17 – 01:37:27:11
Nathan Crane
And your goats and your goats and sheep.

01:37:27:17 – 01:37:31:02
Miyoko Schinner
Goats. Goats and chickens and cows and pigs. Yeah.

01:37:32:08 – 01:37:36:10
Nathan Crane
That’s awesome. And do you take you taking supplements, any substance that you take?

01:37:37:14 – 01:37:54:18
Miyoko Schinner
I did start taking Vitamin B12, but I didn’t for the longest time. And then I thought, you know, I don’t even know if I really need it, but I did sort of start taking it, I don’t know, about a year or so ago. But no, I’ve never really taken supplements. Well, yeah, I just eat well.

01:37:54:18 – 01:37:55:11
Nathan Crane
That’s like I mean.

01:37:55:19 – 01:37:58:12
Miyoko Schinner
People in the world see a wide variety of plants.

01:37:58:12 – 01:38:17:04
Nathan Crane
And that’s a smart way to do it. And, you know, and if people are curious, if you’re on a vegan diet, it’s, you know, get a get a nutrient panel test, you know, find out like we tested my wife’s B12, she doesn’t take B12 and hers was through the roof. So I’m like, what are you getting? 12, you know, she’s plant based diet the same amount of years that I have.

01:38:17:04 – 01:38:17:12
Nathan Crane
So.

01:38:18:04 – 01:38:51:22
Miyoko Schinner
You know, you get it from micro or you get it from from bacteria. Right. And you know, and I’m on a farm and and I’ve been known to pick up an apple from the ground and eat it. So, yeah, you know, maybe I’ll buy B12, too. But I will tell you that when I was pregnant and nursing my third child, my second child, I was asked to come in for a blood panels, check my iron levels because they were really concerned being pregnant and nursed same time and my iron level at the time I was probably I was 40 at the time was that of a young man in his early twenties.

01:38:51:22 – 01:38:59:04
Miyoko Schinner
So it was way up there. And the the the dietician was like, what are you eating? How are you getting all this?

01:39:00:04 – 01:39:23:14
Nathan Crane
You know, a lot of beans. Beans that you can get iron from beans. Absolutely. That’s why a whole food plant diet is like, you know, on a whole food, nutrient dense, diverse, plant based diet, you will need the least amount of supplements possible and for some people, they don’t need any supplements. Now, some people they do. Some people can’t convert vitamin K one to K two.

01:39:23:14 – 01:39:51:03
Nathan Crane
You might need to take K2. Some people are not eating seaweed, so they’re not getting enough iodine and they’re not using iodized salt. So you might need an iodine supplement, but you don’t want to just take iodine and then mess up your thyroid. So test your test your thyroid levels, test your test your thyroid hormone. Right. You in some people can’t convert alpha from vegetables to EPA and DHEA for the brain and even DHEA is is really a conditional nutrient.

01:39:51:03 – 01:40:12:21
Nathan Crane
I mean it’s probably closer to an essential nutrient, but not everybody can convert ala DHEA and EPA. So you might take an algae supplement, right? It’s just a few simple things. Vitamin D, if you’re not out in the sunshine getting a vitamin D or you’re not getting it from milk or or eggs and much of it except vitamin D, but milk does, you know, so if you’re vegan, the sunshine.

01:40:12:21 – 01:40:16:03
Nathan Crane
Sunshine is the best form of vitamin D sunshine.

01:40:16:03 – 01:40:28:00
Miyoko Schinner
This is something that everyone needs. So, I mean, absolutely, it impacts our mental health, too. I mean, it was so gray here for several weeks. I’m just getting depressed, so.

01:40:28:11 – 01:40:45:05
Nathan Crane
I know how it goes. I’m like, Man, I’m craving sunshine. I was out there for like 15 minutes. I tried to get 15, 20 minutes out in the sunshine every day that I possibly can, at minimum. Like, I just I need it, you know, I moved to Florida. It’s like I need that sunshine. I think we all do.

01:40:45:05 – 01:41:07:04
Nathan Crane
I know that I feel better and more energy and happier when I have sunshine. But. But there’s a few ingredients. There’s a few nutrients. If you’re concerned, you know, people tuning in, do some testing and find out before you start taking a bunch of supplements. I’ve taken supplements for years and years and then I test things. I’m like, Oh, I’m either low in this thing, I should take this or I’m super high in this.

01:41:07:04 – 01:41:28:16
Nathan Crane
I need to stop taking this, you know, and you don’t know unless you test. But like yourself, you know, you obviously great and are healthy and been doing this a long time and you eat most of your whole food plant based, you know, whole food, real food diet for the most part. That’s why I recommend people 80% plus whole real foods, you know, less as less packaged as possible.

01:41:29:19 – 01:41:51:10
Miyoko Schinner
Absolutely. I think that’s really the simple answer. And most of the world isn’t going out and getting taking supplements and testing for their biomarkers, etc.. I mean, they’re just eating Whole Foods and that’s what they you know, most of the world still eats that way. And we’ve forgotten how to do that in America.

01:41:51:10 – 01:41:55:08
Nathan Crane
Well, it’s been awesome talking with you. Great to meet you.

01:41:55:16 – 01:41:57:00
Miyoko Schinner
And yeah, nice.

01:41:57:19 – 01:42:00:24
Nathan Crane
You’re really brilliant. I definitely enjoyed the conversation.

01:42:02:00 – 01:42:06:02
Miyoko Schinner
I had no idea what we’re going to talk about. Me neither. Checked out any paths.

01:42:07:07 – 01:42:26:07
Nathan Crane
That’s why I love doing this. I love the podcast. I don’t have anything planned. It’s just like just talk and see where it goes. And I think I think we covered some pretty good ground. So appreciate you coming on. And how can people get in touch with you by your cookbooks? You got new ones, your new cookbook coming out.

01:42:27:10 – 01:42:48:02
Miyoko Schinner
It’s coming out in 2025. You can find my cookbooks on. Well, let’s just throw it out there. Amazon or Barnes and Noble or any other bookseller. Just Google my name. Miyoko Chinnor. You can find me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, working on a website, but it’s not up yet. But if you just Google me, you’ll find me.

01:42:48:16 – 01:43:02:06
Nathan Crane
Yeah, I follow you on YouTube and Instagram. I love the recipes you’ve been posting and thank you. And yeah, folks, go check out her cookbooks. Got some good ones out there, and, um. Yeah, thanks. Give me a call. Appreciate it.

01:43:02:16 – 01:43:04:14
Miyoko Schinner
All right, Nathan. Thanks a lot. All right.

01:43:04:14 – 01:43:05:15
Nathan Crane
By the.