Dive into this enlightening conversation about the nature of God in the Bible.

Is God vengeful or loving? Explore the contrasting portrayals of God in the Old and New Testaments with Jonathan Otto.

In this video, we delve into biblical contradictions and personal faith journeys, aiming to understand God’s true character. Don’t miss this deep and thought-provoking dialogue.

Your host, Nathan Crane, is a Certified Holistic Cancer Coach, Best-Selling Author, Inspirational Speaker, Cancer-Health Researcher and Educator, and 20X Award Winning Documentary Filmmaker with Over 15 Years in the Health Field.

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Audio Transcript

 

(This transcript was auto-generated so there may be some errors)

 

00:00:00:02 – 00:00:23:01
Nathan Crane
Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Today we’re doing something really special, something really unique, something I haven’t done yet on this podcast that I’m really looking forward to. And this will be part one in a series of conversations on the Bible. And so multiple conversations will follow and I’m really excited about this because today I have my really good friend Jonathan Otto on.

00:00:23:01 – 00:00:52:18
Nathan Crane
And today we’re going to be talking about this contradiction that we often see between Old Testament and New Testament and this contradiction that we see of the question I’ve had in my mind for many years Is God a vengeful God, a angry God, a jealous God, one that condemns and burns people to hell for their sins? Or is God a loving God, a caring God, a God that understands and forgives and is all compassionate?

00:00:53:18 – 00:01:38:06
Nathan Crane
Because I don’t think you can have both at the same time. I don’t think that is certainly to me not possible. And so this conversation we’re going to deep dove into this topic and not here to say that either of us have all the answers. We’re not here to judge or say this is the absolute truth. But both of us have spent quite a bit of time not only researching the Bible, in my case, researching many different religions and traditions, but Jonathan actually has spent probably more time than most over his short life so far in really studying the Bible and really living it and really questioning it and really having deep faith.

00:01:38:06 – 00:02:09:06
Nathan Crane
And I’ll have Jonathan share with you a little bit here about his own life of faith and his own research into the Bible. He’s got some really fascinating and unique ideas that I rarely hear, even from scholars and from pastors that I’ve questioned over the years. And so some of the ideas that I’ve come to through my practice of faith are very similar to the ideas that the Jonathan has shared with me.

00:02:09:06 – 00:02:29:19
Nathan Crane
And so we’ve come to the same conclusions on certain topics, not on everything, but on certain topics and ideas that I think are rare in the Christian community and in, you know, in many spiritual communities that I’ve spoken with about these topics. And so some things we may agree on, some things, some things we may not, some things we may disagree on.

00:02:29:19 – 00:02:50:09
Nathan Crane
But certainly we want to have this conversation, too, and invite you into the conversation, share your thoughts. You know, let us know below the video. What what are your questions? What are your thoughts? What do you think about what we’re sharing? Because I think these are important conversations that we have because the Bible can absolutely be misunderstood and misinterpreted.

00:02:50:09 – 00:03:10:21
Nathan Crane
And we all probably have and are misinterpreting misunderstanding it at different points in different areas in our life and understanding. And so for me, I think it’s really important that we gain more understanding and as conversations like this allow us to do it. So, Jonathan, brother, thanks for thanks for coming on, man. I’m super excited to have this conversation with you saying Yeah.

00:03:11:05 – 00:03:40:21
Jonathan Otto
For sure. I thank you Nathan for the opportunity. I love this conversation because it’s it’s so deep, it’s so personal. It’s something that relates to everyone, in my opinion. It’s something that is in someone’s heart and mind continually. So if you can elevate someone’s perception of God, it could change their whole belief in themselves. That can change their their understanding of their own identity, of who they are and the value that they possess.

00:03:41:13 – 00:03:46:09
Jonathan Otto
And so I think it’s a it’s an awesome conversation. I’m super excited to share.

00:03:46:09 – 00:03:51:07
Nathan Crane
Yeah. Can you give a couple of minutes on your background with your with Faith Short?

00:03:51:09 – 00:04:10:06
Jonathan Otto
So I grew up in a Christian family and I questioned things a lot. I was very skeptical child. I doubted a lot. I saw a lot of what I thought was hypocrisy. And that’s simply, I think, because I was trying to find what I wanted to be like as I was natural that a child will look to see, you know, what’s real and what’s not.

00:04:10:06 – 00:04:29:01
Jonathan Otto
And then say, I don’t really think that these people are for real or these kinds of things. And so I had a lot of doubts about faith, about God, about Christianity. I had a lot of doubts about all of this. And kind of I was very much drawn at an early age into humanitarian work. And I felt like it was like a substitute like that.

00:04:29:02 – 00:04:53:22
Jonathan Otto
This is actually what people need. They need to do things for others. And this whole thing about faith is really kind of a distraction that makes people feel good about themselves potentially, but then has no real world impact and actually takes people away from the front line of service and love and care and saving people from starvation. And these are the thoughts that I had in my mind is I quite resented many aspects of I don’t think I’ve told you about that.

00:04:53:22 – 00:05:17:04
Jonathan Otto
Nathan and I and I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder with it and certain things that I guess that that was that they were the fact is that came together for me. That made me feel like I just don’t know about all of this. And they were at age 19. Then I started studying the Bible very deeply myself and it was out of a dry like I felt a need.

00:05:17:10 – 00:05:41:15
Jonathan Otto
They came to this point where I felt like as much as I wanted to try to do, I really I felt lacking in myself that there was a gaping hole and that it it a my my self-worth or my perception of myself and my desire to to achieve and to form and to do things that were socially acceptable and to be powerful and important.

00:05:41:15 – 00:06:02:16
Jonathan Otto
And all these things were driving me on this pendulum where I was swinging up and down with my, my, my self-worth. And so I was I was high and then low and then high and low, and it was driving me crazy. And so I just remember breaking down in tears, you know, continually thinking, what is wrong? Like, I don’t like this equation of life.

00:06:02:16 – 00:06:21:03
Jonathan Otto
And so caused me to then go deeper into asking the question, Do I need God? And this came out because I then started to feel like I can kind of understand what people need when they pursue a relationship with God. And I feel like there’s something missing my life and I can’t find it. I can’t find it in and success.

00:06:21:03 – 00:06:53:13
Jonathan Otto
I can’t find it. And girls, I can’t find it in their pursuits or I just can’t find it. And so then this then caused me to open the Bible and to start to study it deeply and to seek to understand it. And and that actually I saw it change lots of different aspects of my life. I got to the point where, you know, over the years, absolutely thousands upon thousands of hours in all kinds of aspects of the Bible from prophecy of how the Bible predicted future events that have historically, you know, happened and come to pass.

00:06:53:13 – 00:07:14:11
Jonathan Otto
And then others that I, I see all the signs that they’re happening even in the midst of us now and then and then this deeper conversation that came around a concept called theodicy, which is not theology, theocracy, which is the pursuit of God’s character to understand it. And I felt that something about that was deeply connected to who I am.

00:07:14:20 – 00:07:41:18
Jonathan Otto
And there were these contradictions that I couldn’t resolve, which was these ideas of a vengeful god, which then to me showed up in a few things, which were one films and entertainment that was highly stimulating, that often had themes of violence, punishment and and then also like a sexual drive that was I could see it was out of whack.

00:07:41:24 – 00:08:10:04
Jonathan Otto
And, you know, the desire for things that were disassociated and disconnected, for example, you know, discovering pornography when I was it, you know, mid teenager and then and then realizing that this is bad, quote unquote, getting it out of my life and then yet finding it light, you know, why do I want things like this? And then realizing it was connected to my pursuit for God and not finding comfort in God, me actually having without me realizing a vengeful view of God.

00:08:10:14 – 00:08:42:12
Jonathan Otto
This, this thing that you talked about where it had a canceling effect because I grew up Christian. So Christian, you know, belief frequently teaches that God stands as a judge over the human race and will decide whether you’re good enough and then we’ll you. Yeah, basically, if you really think about it, most Christians are living under a condemnation that they will potentially never size up for God and then be ultimately thrown out and rejected by God and even tortured by God and in a place called hell.

00:08:42:19 – 00:09:09:08
Jonathan Otto
And these things tormented me without me even realizing. And it was driving these other things. And and I only really so I only actually realized this was the driving force behind it until I once I started to study the Bible and realized that my beliefs on God were false and they came through. I really are a reflection of myself and and others were teaching a reflection of themselves.

00:09:09:08 – 00:09:35:23
Jonathan Otto
And so this became a widely accepted teaching. But it once I uprooted it, then these behaviors, these thoughts, these beliefs, these behaviors, these patterns all disappeared. And I saw myself free from these chains that even people that are completely secular and atheistic often, you know, want to get rid of like a pornography addiction, would prefer a deep connection with their spouse or something of that nature.

00:09:36:15 – 00:09:42:09
Jonathan Otto
And, you know, I definitely was really grateful to find that. So that’s kind of how it all comes full circle for me.

00:09:43:13 – 00:10:03:10
Nathan Crane
Yeah, beautiful. And we can get into more specific stories and experiences that you’ve gone through over the years, too. And I’ll share a little bit about my background in a minute. But first I want to talk about this. What we see in the old Testament, right, where we see like a vengeful god, there’s a there’s a pretty classic example.

00:10:04:15 – 00:10:27:24
Nathan Crane
First, Samuel, chapter 15, verse two, the saith the Lord of Hosts. I remember that which am elected Israel how laid wait for him in the way when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite leg and utterly destroy all that they have and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling oxen, sheep, camel and ass.

00:10:27:24 – 00:10:54:17
Nathan Crane
And Saul gathered the people together and numbered them into lamb. 200,000 from men. 10,000 men of Judah. Right. And so this is basically and there’s multiple examples in the Old Testament where it shows, you know, God condoning death and violence and killing, you know, a lot of these concepts as vengeful God concept that we have. And so, you know, but there are very many.

00:10:54:18 – 00:11:19:21
Nathan Crane
So I do want to say the contradiction is there there are many Old Testament passages where God is portraying love, where God is merciful, right? And then many and in the New Testament as well. And so, you know, this is that kind of contradiction. And I think where we get confused also, this is slightly off track, but I want to mention it because I have it right here.

00:11:19:21 – 00:11:39:12
Nathan Crane
Is this this word fear? Right. And so I’m a I’m a God fearing man. Right. We hear that a lot. And throughout the Old Testament, you’ll see, you know, Deuteronomy 13, four, which is actually Deuteronomy. Is that New Testament.

00:11:39:23 – 00:11:40:02
Jonathan Otto
And.

00:11:40:16 – 00:12:05:07
Nathan Crane
No, that’s Old Testament. Yeah. Ye shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve him and cleave unto him. Deuteronomy six two That the Almighty is fear that Thou might fear the Lord I God to keep all His statues as commandments on and on. 65 And Thou shalt now, now says, And Thou shalt love the Lord that God with all the and heart with all they saw Him with all they might.

00:12:05:22 – 00:12:38:23
Nathan Crane
So that contradiction, fear and love. What’s really been so helpful for me is I really dove into deeper research into the Bible. I’ve, over my last 20 years or so on, kind of my spiritual journey I have, you know, gone through various aspects of researching parts of the Bible, like not the whole thing in depth. Like I’m doing that I’m doing from beginning to end every single day, reading it, praying on it, reading the meanings of the words, the original Aramaic or Hebrew or or Greek meanings of the words.

00:12:38:23 – 00:12:59:11
Nathan Crane
Right. And, and writing about it and meditating on it and praying on it. So I’m doing I did that in small, like small pieces of chunks throughout the Bible over the years. And now I’m doing the whole Bible that way. And the thing that’s helped me so much is the app that you sent me as KJV, right, which is Strong’s King James version.

00:12:59:24 – 00:13:28:17
Nathan Crane
It’s a free app and basically you can click on a word and see what the original definition of that word is. And so when I looked at fear, what is the original meaning of fear in the original language? It’s to revere right to respect, not to be afraid of, but to but to respect, to revere. Reverence for something is significantly different than what we think of today as fear for something.

00:13:29:16 – 00:13:50:22
Nathan Crane
And that’s I got chills thinking about it because it changes the whole meaning of every time you read the word fear, God in the Bible. See here it says, Fear God, fear God, love God, right? What it’s saying is revere God, revere God, respect God, love God. Now the contradictions gone now it makes sense. It’s saying Love God, love God, respect God, revere God.

00:13:50:22 – 00:14:08:19
Nathan Crane
But we take the word fear literal today instead of understanding the original language it was written in. And that to me was like a huge because I came to the same concept even without being a Christian, even without, you know, going to church. I came to this same concept 15, 16 years ago that God is love, God is nothing but love.

00:14:09:00 – 00:14:46:03
Nathan Crane
God only loves us only as compassion for us, only wants us to do good only is here to serve us to to to help guide us to our highest good. To show us a loving, pure, happy, joyful life. I came to that conclusion on my own, just like you did. We did it through different paths. But now it’s like I’m seeing these ways as I study the Bible of where, you know, misunderstandings have led people into a dark life because if you’re afraid of something, right, fear prevents you from making your highest decision for the highest good.

00:14:46:03 – 00:15:14:21
Nathan Crane
We know this psychologically. We know that if you’re afraid of something, you often will make poor choices. So why would God want us to make poor choices? I’m afraid of God. Now I’m going to make poor choices. That doesn’t even make sense psychologically. But when you revere God, I respect God and I love God. Now, my my whole brain is hard wired, literally designed to help me make good choices in my life, for my family, for my future, for my health, for humanity.

00:15:15:05 – 00:15:24:20
Nathan Crane
Right. And so understanding these deeper meanings of the word is essential, I think, in our pursuit of the truth, in our pursuit of the truth to God.

00:15:25:10 – 00:15:59:23
Jonathan Otto
Wow. Yeah, I love that. And look, I think I think you’re nailing it. And I think that this is such an important conversation. And, you know, you get these points and you’re willing to study to see what these these ancient texts teach. And look at these root words. What do they mean? And I love that that study around fear because it’s put in contrast to if you look at it first, John four eight, it says perfect love cos that fear for fear has torment and he that fears is not made perfect in love.

00:16:00:05 – 00:16:21:10
Jonathan Otto
Isn’t that interesting. And, and anyone that is really believes in the Bible and says this is my text for life doesn’t generally believe that there’s this contradiction. It’s not supposed to be there if there’s a contradiction, it’s a contradiction in your own understanding. And it’s one that’s said designed to help you wrestle with something. It’s there to use your mind to work through it.

00:16:21:19 – 00:16:46:20
Jonathan Otto
And then yet you keep clicking along the word fear and you keep looking at the root of even the root of reverence has to do with admiration. It’s right. It’s about beholding and seeing something that draws you in and is awe inspiring. So think about the word awful. I mean, awful is full of awe. So we would use the word awful to say something is bad, but you’re in awe of that.

00:16:46:20 – 00:17:12:18
Jonathan Otto
So that actually the same word even in just in English could be used to describe something horrible or something beautiful. Why? Why, why is something that denotes or, you know, necessarily then couched as being negative? Same thing is true for the word wrath and anger. So these are words that you would say, well, wrath of God, anger. These are clearly negative words.

00:17:12:18 – 00:17:39:00
Jonathan Otto
And then you can’t get around this, but it’s an old English word. So you’ve got to understand it in the old English, not whatever you think it means or whatever your past I think it means. What does the text actually teach? And the power in something like Strong’s concordance was formulated by James Strong is not because he was brilliant, it’s because he was getting every verse on this subject and looking at every possible meaning for this word based on the context.

00:17:39:08 – 00:18:21:08
Jonathan Otto
So not making up words, saying this is what this means in every context, hence why it comes up with different meanings. But fear and anger translate. The words are like, for example, in Hebrew as and in Greek or gay or gay is where we get the word orgasm. Isn’t that strange? And, and even origami is interesting that you look at because it which is two fold but the the the word all gay is is very similar to the word arf, which means to quiver, which is what people have when they’re in like either pleasure, anger or immense pain.

00:18:21:18 – 00:18:49:08
Jonathan Otto
And so now translated, okay, so God is and the ARF, for example, is rapid breathing through the nose and to equip the body to shake. And so the wrath of God is actually the suffering of God. And then you look at the words, for example, as, you know, suffering and long suffering. These words are examples of that. So they’re used like in similar fashion.

00:18:49:08 – 00:19:07:05
Jonathan Otto
So when God is suffering, then these words can get translated as words that are denoted and closely connected to anger and wrath. And so people say, okay, God is angry at me. Verse is, God is suffering because of my choices. So different. And then like.

00:19:07:14 – 00:19:39:02
Nathan Crane
Hang on, let’s pause there for a second because yeah, that is such a different perspective to think that the wrath is not the wrath of God condemning you, the wrath of His anger towards you, the root of that actually being almost you know, God almost that God is sad right there. Like there’s almost a sadness there because you are walking away from God when God is opening his loving arms to you.

00:19:39:20 – 00:20:11:21
Nathan Crane
Yeah, you know, and on that note, there’s so Galatians 522 right as to New Testament, but the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, right and glaze. 513 For brethren, you have been called into liberty, only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love, serve one another for all the laws fulfilled in one word.

00:20:11:21 – 00:20:37:03
Nathan Crane
Even in this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. But if you bite and devour one another, take heed the be not consumed one of another this I say, then walk in the spirit, which I already said. The Spirit is peace and gentleness and goodness and faith, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. And so we can find way more.

00:20:37:05 – 00:21:09:06
Nathan Crane
Actually, if you do the research and compare how many times a loving God, a compassionate God, a peaceful God is portrayed from Old Testament to New Testament. I don’t know what the exact ratio is, but it’s significant more that it’s that it’s positive. And then as we go deeper to understand these root words of the ones where we see this wrathful, you know, angry God, we start to understand that the interpretations of that into our modern language have been misinterpreted.

00:21:09:24 – 00:21:39:12
Jonathan Otto
Yeah, you got it. You got it. It’s and and a huge takeaway here, Nathan, to prove what you’re saying is true. And what I’m saying is true, where it becomes undeniable is is the revelation of Jesus. Because if if we didn’t have that, then it would become very debatable. We could we could go and look at these and say, well, look, wrath is used to describe when people are actually angry and want to murder somebody.

00:21:39:12 – 00:21:55:00
Jonathan Otto
They used in this context, and it can be used it’s a dual word. It can be used to denote long suffering. So which one is it? And you really can’t work it out. You just have to sit there and go, Well, I want it to be the good one. And then where do you have this strong evidence that.

00:21:55:04 – 00:22:17:24
Jonathan Otto
No, it absolutely is the good one. There’s no way around this. There’s no way to resolve the contradiction and the the answer to that is through Jesus. And there is a reason why Jesus is the most famous figure in all history. And it’s not because he was like an Alexander the Great. That he conquered many armies is actually the opposite.

00:22:17:24 – 00:22:39:09
Jonathan Otto
It’s that he was he was so meek. And the miracles that were recorded and these things were were profound. And but the thing that really, like, topped it all off was his lack of violence, period, and especially his lack of violence went under the most horrific threats.

00:22:39:09 – 00:22:39:20
Nathan Crane
Right.

00:22:40:08 – 00:23:02:21
Jonathan Otto
But you have you have a servant of the high priest. Malika is taking him to get executed. And and then he has one of his followers that thinks of things in a more militia type sense, like let’s let’s, let’s fight back. It’s a normal human behavior tries to basically take off the head of this guy just hits the ear off the ears on the ground.

00:23:02:22 – 00:23:25:18
Jonathan Otto
He picks it up, put it puts it on his back on his face. And here he is being led to his death. And so this is a very ennobling thought, too, to think about somebody that would be willing to submit themselves into the hands of their betrayers. And then and then be, even in this case, crucified and then still not to call down, you know, fire and judgment on people.

00:23:25:18 – 00:23:41:20
Jonathan Otto
And and the words that come from his lips, Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing. And and so now, is this something that we just take and say, okay, well, he is he is this other side, the God. And he has this other side to God from the Old Testament. And, you know, you better get your life right.

00:23:41:20 – 00:24:12:19
Jonathan Otto
Otherwise the other God is going to come out. Or is this just the consistent way that God is, that this is a full revelation of God’s love in Christ? And then and then our understanding of Christ then illuminates the rest of the Scriptures and helps us understand. There’s a beautiful passage in second Corinthians 314 and it says, But then minds were blinded for until this day remains the same veil untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament, which veil is done away with in Christ and like New King James a little bit easier.

00:24:13:00 – 00:24:31:20
Jonathan Otto
But their minds were blinded for until this day the same veil remains on lifted in the reading of the Old Testament because the veil is taken away in Christ mean there’s a veil, like there’s something that’s obstructing your reading of the Old Testament or of of the the systems or the the sacrificial system of love with the lambs and all these things.

00:24:31:23 – 00:24:58:17
Jonathan Otto
This is all obstructed because of your own self. Because your own self requires sacrifice. And until people can work this out, they won’t work it out. Because unless you can work out that you require sacrifice, then it doesn’t make sense why God is even speaking through these symbols. And and then and then you come and you see that even Jesus didn’t even partake in the sacrificial system at the Passover.

00:24:58:17 – 00:25:24:21
Jonathan Otto
He’s eating, you know, wine, which translates to grapes. So it could be fermented or not, considering that you see more evidence for non fermented people will kind of scoff at that. But you know, John the Baptist was forbidden from drinking any alcohol. His parents, Sampson’s parents were told he’s not to drink any strong drink. When Christ was receiving the wine on the cross, he he says he refused it.

00:25:25:14 – 00:25:55:18
Jonathan Otto
And to like numb the pain, he refused it. So my point being, they’re specifically just getting to the point he was it was bread and it was it was a grape juice of whatever kind it was not even the sacrificial lamb. And so and the death system is really a human system. And when people realize that, then they start realizing that the only way for God to now reach humanity is by agreeing with their psychology to lead them out of it.

00:25:56:04 – 00:26:26:13
Jonathan Otto
And and because, you know, people are convinced in a reality you can’t convince them out of it. And and so the purchase price of the human race, the need for a blood sacrifice, for example, Christ to die instead of us, because the whole ethos of Christianity is that Christ died in my place to take away the death penalty that was owed to me, that God was going to have to pay to me and He was going to have to execute me out of my sins for what I’ve done.

00:26:27:10 – 00:26:42:15
Jonathan Otto
And and it’s so hard for people to escape this because we’ve all known what we’ve done wrong. And imagine if you took the life of somebody who did something that was irreversible and all of us have done irreversible things that have hurt people. Now, how do you just believe that you just get off the hook, that it’s not fair?

00:26:42:15 – 00:27:03:02
Jonathan Otto
It’s not right. It’s not okay. So then the demand for there to be a death penalty is is within your own soul. And so you need to see the death penalty enacted. And then that’s the that’s the window for you to even believe that you could be saved by God. And so you see Christ come. And then all the people that are involved in crucifying are all disobeying God.

00:27:04:03 – 00:27:21:07
Jonathan Otto
A pilot is given a vision from his wife, and angel comes to her in a dream or vision, says have nothing to do with this innocent man. And then, you know, and then pilot is then washing his hands saying it’s not my fault. He then later suicides. If you look at the history of pilots not recording the Bible, that’s a record in history.

00:27:22:02 – 00:27:46:07
Jonathan Otto
God was trying to save him from this fate. God was trying to save all the different people from doing this wrong thing. It wasn’t his plan, but it was one that he was able to reach us through. And then you come back, you start unlocking all the scriptures of the old Testament and realizing that God was showing there is to the human soul of their deaths and violence and even passages like what you started on the canon to kill the malachite.

00:27:47:04 – 00:28:13:15
Jonathan Otto
This was horrific because it specifically appears that God is condoning the killing of not only women, but children, not only children, but infants and suckling. First, Samuel, 15, verse three. To kill infants and suckling commanded by the Lord, and you’ll find Christians just having to find a way to justify it. But then. But then how do you have any value with God when a child like this could be executed?

00:28:14:03 – 00:28:38:05
Jonathan Otto
When, I mean, who has more sin in their life? Me or that a malachi child was born into a pagan tribe that is involved in lots of dark and evil things. But that child is it’s it’s nothing honest by this breath. It has not done anything. I’ve got far more to account for now. My belief that God is okay with killing these infants then now reflects on my own worth to God.

00:28:38:05 – 00:29:14:12
Jonathan Otto
I’m obviously worth nothing to God if this child’s not because I’ve done worse. And and so just understanding that when even if you look at the passage, Young’s little translation translates it way differently. It says, Saul, you have killed Al-Malik. You have killed men, woman and infant in suckling instead of the King James. Which which again, I’m not saying that King James is a bad translation, but I am saying that you have to then do your own referencing to understand, because you’re at the mercy of the translator that took it from the original into the language, into English in this case.

00:29:14:12 – 00:29:39:00
Jonathan Otto
And so Saul is seeing a mirror of his own soul. He’s he’s decided himself to kill the Malachite. God is now showing him what his plan to do. And and in the young, literally, he’s saying that you have done this. And so it’s an example that then now alleviates God from being the one that’s harming and killing. And then you’re seeing God now, you know, interact with people within their own psyche.

00:29:39:00 – 00:29:54:14
Jonathan Otto
And James 123 says, if a man is a hero of the word not to do it, it is as if he’s beholding his natural appearance in the mirror, going away and forgetting the manner of person that he was. So you’re looking at a mirror. When you’re looking at it, you’re seeing souls, darkness and violence and God is reflecting it back to him.

00:29:54:22 – 00:30:11:09
Jonathan Otto
It’s why you also see passages where it says that the Lord repented of the evil that he thought to do to Israel, which makes no sense to a Christian, because they would say, well, you know, I’m a Christian, by the way, so I’m not. But I’m saying that it makes no sense to somebody that believes that God does not repent.

00:30:11:19 – 00:30:37:05
Jonathan Otto
Why he doesn’t do anything wrong. So why would he repent and he does not do evil? And it’s the same word evil as used in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Evil angels is the same word. So he repented of the evil that he wants to do Israel. And in this case he’s reflecting the that the spirit of Moses towards the people and Moses is the one that he’s thinking these thoughts of, let’s get rid of them.

00:30:37:05 – 00:30:58:05
Jonathan Otto
And this is why God says I’ll let I’ll destroy these people and make of you a great nation. And it’s but it’s a mirror of the soul of Moses showing him what he he has, he has planned and what he’s thinking in his mind. And then Moses then responds and says, God don’t do this thing. And it brings out of him by him seeing a mirror of himself.

00:30:58:13 – 00:31:12:02
Jonathan Otto
It brings about this change, and this is why the Lord repented of the evil that he thought to do the Israel because he’s it’s it’s Moses seeing him himself, turning his own heart turned and God’s reflecting it back to Him. Super powerful to see it.

00:31:12:15 – 00:31:54:09
Nathan Crane
So this is kind of similar to the story of Arjuna and Krishna or Jun and God in the battlefield where this comes from the Bhagavad Gita, which comes from the ancient Indian texts and the you know, Arjuna is basically this great warrior and, you know, this is a story to teach us basically exactly what you’re saying. You know, this came anywhere between this text came anywhere between depends on the scholars, you know, 1500 B.C. to potentially 4000, 5000 B.C. But basically the story is that Arjuna then goes out and sees all of his you know, these are neighboring tribes.

00:31:54:09 – 00:32:16:04
Nathan Crane
These are these are cousins, these are ons, these are uncles, these are family and friends. Right. But they have to have this great war, this great battle, because, you know, they they’re warriors. And, you know, who’s going to, you know, dominate and own the land and so forth. And Arjuna goes out and he sees all of these family members among them, and he has this conversation with God.

00:32:16:04 – 00:32:39:08
Nathan Crane
And he says, How can you tell me to, you know, how can I live with myself knowing that I will kill, you know, my brothers and sisters and cousins and aunts and uncles and these these innocent people, his family members. I would rather die. I would rather die in shame then then to, you know, kill all of these people, even though I know it’s my duty.

00:32:39:08 – 00:33:26:08
Nathan Crane
This is my response ability. And so God is talking to Arjuna. And basically, you know, almost as years I see it almost as a mirrors. What you’re saying is like this conversation, this reflection where Arjuna is coming to this realization through these questions and conversation of bearing and opening his own soul to the truth within. And, you know, so that’s a really that’s a really fascinating example of what you’re talking about, which goes back to, you know, ancient Indian texts as well, which which to slightly on 2 minutes on kind of my background was, you know, I’ve studied and continue to study in depth, you know, multiple ancient texts and religions from, you know, the

00:33:26:08 – 00:34:13:21
Nathan Crane
Vedas and the Bhagavad Gita to Buddhist texts and Buddhist religions to Dallas and Daoism, Native Americans. I’ve spent many, many hours in ceremonies and conversations and spiritual discussions with multiple Native American tribes over the years and have, you know, and have spent time in in Christian churches and Catholic churches and other, you know, various religions, as I study and looking for, you know, the my direct understanding and connection to God and what I have found so fascinating is in all of these ancient traditions, every single one, whether it’s Buddhism, it’s it’s Hinduism, it’s it’s the Vedas, it’s these ancient traditions.

00:34:14:05 – 00:34:38:03
Nathan Crane
You know, every single one of them portrays God as a loving God, portrays God as a compassionate God, portrays God as a, you know, all knowing, all compassionate, all loving God. And so I had that already kind of knowing this through my through some experience I had early on, almost 20 years ago, and then through my own meditations and starting to know that for myself.

00:34:38:03 – 00:35:06:19
Nathan Crane
And then I came across the Bible, you know, I thought, wow, there’s there’s these interesting contradictions here. So this idea that you shared of maybe we’re seeing a mirror of ourselves or a mirror of, you know, the characters in the Bible is very interesting, right? That’s fascinating way to look at it. But then the idea, too, of the when you talked about, you know, you know, through Jesus is where we can really, you know, understand the truth because like Matthew.

00:35:06:19 – 00:35:44:05
Nathan Crane
538, you have heard that it was said eye for an eye. Tooth for a tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. So back to your point of, you know, Jesus, even in so many opportunities to be a representation of, you know, condemnation and judgment and and anger and so forth, even tells his disciples, turn the other cheek if someone attacks you right, meaning do not fight back.

00:35:44:05 – 00:36:17:13
Nathan Crane
Right? This is this is peace, this is peaceful, non resistance as Gandhi taught peaceful resistance as Gandhi taught. And then, you know, John 14 six So this is probably a conversation for another time, but I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. And there are so many examples of that same, you know, written in different ways where Jesus talks about, you know, believe in me, trust in me, follow me, do as I do through me is where you connect to the father.

00:36:17:13 – 00:36:42:05
Nathan Crane
Through me is how you become one with God and how I interpret that. And I’ve I have to pull up more passages to really back this up, but I’ve read them over the years is that when we do as Jesus did, when we live as Jesus did, when we do what He talks about in the Bible, right? We are compassionate, we are loving, we are forgiving, we are generous, we are caring, right?

00:36:42:05 – 00:37:09:03
Nathan Crane
We are kind and forgiving. We follow Jesus that through Jesus, through His example, is how we then become one with God, how we then are, you know, truly our highest selves, our highest potential. And I know in Christianity there’s this belief that you’re born sinner and natural born sinner, and I will always be a sinner no matter what.

00:37:09:21 – 00:37:33:10
Nathan Crane
And I don’t believe that. I don’t I don’t and I don’t judge anybody’s beliefs in that. But I have seen in my own life and many others that we can continue to to heal this part of ourselves and follow what Jesus taught and learn to. I’m not there yet, but eventually get to a place where we no longer sin, we no longer have sin within us, that we can perfect our souls just as Jesus taught us to do.

00:37:33:10 – 00:37:53:17
Nathan Crane
He said, You shall do what I do. And even greater things than these. He’s telling us that by following him, that doing as he teaches, that we too shall do, you know, these great things that we are. We can overcome sin. And to me that is, you know, born in the image of God. God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness is a genesis, right?

00:37:53:23 – 00:38:12:07
Nathan Crane
But then you go further on and you see, you know, when John talks about John one seven, the same come from a witness to bear witness that the light that all men through him I believe he was not that light but was sent to bear witness of the light. That was the true light, which to every man that comes to the world he was in the world, in the world was made by him.

00:38:12:08 – 00:38:45:21
Nathan Crane
The world knew him not. He came into his own, in his own received him not, but as many as received him to them, gave he power to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Believe on his name. So that’s another one of those words that I researched, right? Believe was I mean, it does that just mean have faith or just believe that it’s true and know the real original meaning of believe is literally to to to follow, to put your trust in to to follow the example.

00:38:45:22 – 00:39:10:00
Nathan Crane
Right. It’s like to not just believe that something’s there, but to fully commit yourself to it and we believe in his name and we believe in him and what he does and teaches us. Then he then he to become the sons of God. And so, you know, that might be a whole conversation for another Bible conversation. But to me, Jesus was the example.

00:39:10:00 – 00:39:24:21
Nathan Crane
He was the leader. He was the teacher. He was showing us the way to God. Do as I do follow as I do be as I do. And you too shall know God as I know God. And you may agree with that. Or not, but that’s my perception, you know.

00:39:25:04 – 00:39:53:00
Jonathan Otto
Now I know I see it. I think the core thing and what I what I like, I really I think you’re making such a powerful point around Christ, showing us how to know God. And so if you follow the actions of Christ and you followed the beliefs of of how he interacted, even with people that really did deserve punishment, quote unquote, in our minds, then you land at a very nonviolent view and it and it has a very ennobling effect.

00:39:53:00 – 00:40:19:05
Jonathan Otto
And strangely enough, it actually promotes something which I would refer to as Yeah, on that liberation because really if you have everything within you and you don’t have any problems, to me I don’t really think you need God or you don’t need this study, but to me I just been that escape my own condemnation and violence and I and I know that some of it came through programing through like false beliefs and Christianity.

00:40:19:05 – 00:40:40:10
Jonathan Otto
But I know that so much of it is not even connected to that. It was something that was there, like the inherit belief that punishment is due. I’ve seen that in just so many different cultures and and I see it deeply within me, like regardless of religious texts. And so to me, this gives people the ability to identify.

00:40:40:10 – 00:41:00:13
Jonathan Otto
They put their finger on a problem they actually have without realizing and then bring it to the fore and heal it. And that’s why I think is so powerful about this study, because it’s actually all about self reflection, saying this is the violence in me. Everything I thought about that the judgment of God, of standing before God on a day of judgment and God saying, I don’t know if I like this guy.

00:41:01:00 – 00:41:15:21
Jonathan Otto
And, you know, I’ve got two beautiful boys, the three and five year old, and they’re my world. And if they thought of me like that, that I was one day going to decide whether I wanted to keep them or not, it would just break my heart. I just couldn’t even describe in words how much it would hurt me to think that they would think that about me.

00:41:16:03 – 00:41:38:06
Jonathan Otto
But it would make sense why we’d had these reoccurring images, because it’s naturally how we treat people. It’s a look at the political debates and look at how people love to just tear apart the other side. And it’s designed that way to low, wide frequency. It’s really it’s dark because it’s all about saying, you know what, we’d be better if we didn’t have that guy.

00:41:38:06 – 00:41:56:19
Jonathan Otto
I wish the I wish that God didn’t miss. I wish we could take that guy out. And these things that come so naturally to us and I’m, I’m disturbed to to to see that within myself. But God can heal us of these things. Absolutely. To me, Christianity has so much to offer. Like when I say Christianity, I mean Christ.

00:41:57:05 – 00:42:21:00
Jonathan Otto
Because Christianity means, a little Christ or a follower of Christ that not not the world religion that has been kind of espouses the name which many of which you’ve got great examples. And that’s one of the things I started to find. Wow, all this humanitarian work. Why is it all these Christian groups are involved in this so and so that that when we’re out in Kenya together and you see people responding.

00:42:21:00 – 00:42:53:04
Jonathan Otto
So there’s a beautiful aspect there. So I’ll give credit where it’s due. And then you see this militant side where why are they more likely sometimes to be like calling down judgment on people be harsh. And but this wasn’t the ethos of Christ. It was in the actions of Christ that anyway to say to conclude the other point I was making about what you were saying, Christ is showing us how to be and it’s you can’t go wrong, any Christian would say, which is you can’t go wrong if you follow Jesus, follow his actions, follow his life, follow his teachings.

00:42:54:00 – 00:43:12:18
Jonathan Otto
And if you’re confused about the Old Testament and you don’t understand how it all fits, well, he’s there to help you understand it all anyway. And that’s direct revelation. So think about it this way. I could have people tell you about me and or like, let’s say if your children want to know who you are, they didn’t get to know who you are.

00:43:12:18 – 00:43:42:15
Jonathan Otto
And then they they and then you had people teach them about who you were. And then you even somehow, through some kind of telecommunication, were able to have me share with you teachings and words. And I was then also not a robot. And God is now not like automatic writing, controlling my mind. He’s actually inspiring me. And it says that specifically in the Bible, it doesn’t say that he basically like takes over their hands and starts writings.

00:43:42:15 – 00:44:03:15
Jonathan Otto
He’s inspiring them. And so they’re writing under inspiration. That’s why you see all these fascinating prophecies that came true to the T. I think I showed you the prophecy some Christ. It was so accurate to a T things that could were outside of Jesus control. You can control that he would get pierced and his hands and feet. Why did it predicted in some 22 what you know, quotes the words, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

00:44:03:21 – 00:44:28:12
Jonathan Otto
Which he quotes then from the cross. And it says, The garments embodied and sold. All of these different prophecies were in that one, even just that one chapter of some 22 written a thousand years before Christ as dated by the Dead Sea Scrolls as then backed by, you know, actual language motifs and kings, different things that could only be known and written during those times and have no ability to be fabricated in a true historical sense, which is why it’s not debated.

00:44:28:20 – 00:44:59:18
Jonathan Otto
So it has such tremendous ability to, to, to relay important facts. And yet you’re getting you’re getting a message through through a vessel. And so now how much more powerful if you have the person where you then now directly come to your children and say, hey, guys, this is me and now if you now Trump the actual revelation of Nathan, your father with your son, you know, and your daughter, Luna, and your son Isaiah.

00:44:59:24 – 00:45:17:13
Jonathan Otto
Okay. And and then they now then just default and say, well, you know what, I’m just going to go back to my other view that I had, and I’m just going to let this cancel out the view that I clearly have of you as you hold me in your arms and you reveal to me who you are, and then I see you in the worst possible situation.

00:45:17:20 – 00:45:38:19
Jonathan Otto
The cross crucifixion. And look, you still are unchanging. And this is why you see chapters like John ten are I think it’s John ten or 13 having loved own that were in the world. He loved them until the end. And that’s such a beautiful passage because you say you love them. Until when? Until he until it was too much.

00:45:38:24 – 00:46:07:19
Jonathan Otto
Nobody says until the end, meaning the end of his existence. He he breathed his last, last breath without condemning a soul ever during his whole life. And in the worst circumstance, they’re laughing at him. He’s naked. He’s he’s dying. A death that you know, the cross the word excruciating comes from the word crucifixion to describe the amount of pain that he was experiencing, which then wasn’t even matched by the emotional pain of being betrayed by his friends and and leaders.

00:46:07:19 – 00:46:28:01
Jonathan Otto
And, you know, and then and then to to be you see all the conversation, Father. He, you know, why have you forsaken me? Or actually says, My God, why have you forsaken me? Which actually can refer to the rule is actually which is interesting rule is why have you forsaken me? Because he actually never referred to his father as as my as God.

00:46:28:01 – 00:46:44:04
Jonathan Otto
He would refer to him as my father. And that’s why you see father into your hands. I commit my spirit. But the loss of his relationship, like that break with his father’s love, that was the that was the the anguish of soul that the Bible talks about. He’s willing to do all this. He’s being mocked in this. He never retaliates.

00:46:44:04 – 00:47:09:20
Jonathan Otto
And so if you cannot take this as the revelation of God’s love to your soul and to realize that He never gives up on you, and that the words that even in the Old Testament, which is, you know, everlasting love, everlasting mercy, his mercy is is new every morning, everlasting. These words is olam, which means without end, it goes on and on and on, and there is no end to it.

00:47:09:20 – 00:47:27:15
Jonathan Otto
And then then you start realizing there’s no end to this love. And so where does the end come from? It comes from you. It’s it’s where you decide, I’ve had enough of this, and then God can’t restrict you from your free will. And whatever you say then comes back to you. And then you think that God is condemning you.

00:47:27:15 – 00:47:50:12
Jonathan Otto
And that’s why the Bible seems so confusing, because God is a merit to your soul. So He repeats to you back what you are. You would love the passage in some 19 or 18 to the upright. I is upright to the pure, I suppose pure, but to the crooked I appear as or to the crooked or twisted I appears tortuous.

00:47:52:01 – 00:48:09:15
Jonathan Otto
So you see in God what you are. So God is always trying to rescue us from that. And you see, Christ even said what I speak in darkness that treats you in light. And darkness is not talking about what he’s talking about during the nighttime. Tell people during the daytime that doesn’t actually make any sense. What was that?

00:48:10:24 – 00:48:14:18
Jonathan Otto
Oh, yeah. What I speak in darkness that preach you in light. I’ll give you the passage.

00:48:15:24 – 00:48:22:24
Nathan Crane
And now what was the one about? What was the passage for? Basically the mirror, if you see me, is.

00:48:23:10 – 00:48:47:02
Jonathan Otto
The January 23, James 123 and Matthew 1026 is when I referred to you. And and so you see these interesting passages in Matthew 1026, whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light, whatever you hear in it, preach from the house stops, do you not feel? And then, then he now illustrates what he’s about to do it because he is speaking in darkness and then in light.

00:48:47:14 – 00:49:10:02
Jonathan Otto
Very. You love this. He and why would you do it? Why would you speak in darkness, which is which is specifically described as satanic? If you look at it in, acts of Corinthians, acts that we would take them from light, darkness to light from the power of Satan unto God. So now, now light and darkness is defined as the power of Satan.

00:49:10:02 – 00:49:28:23
Jonathan Otto
And then the power of God contrasted that we would take them from darkness to light, from the power of Satan unto God as you know. So it gives you the rule to understand what it means. So what? I speak to you in the power of Satan, like dark, violent, satanic, you know, concepts. You understand this in light, and then you say, Why would you do this?

00:49:29:04 – 00:49:52:11
Jonathan Otto
And then he illustrates what he’s about to do. And then he says, Do you not feel fear those that can kill the body but him, but they cannot kill the soul, but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. So now why is God telling us to to fear now? And now the next verse says, But do not be afraid because you, even a sparrow falls to the ground.

00:49:52:11 – 00:50:09:07
Jonathan Otto
Without your father, he will fall to the ground without your father noticing. Do not be afraid because you’re much more value than a sparrow. Do you not be afraid? Why do you stand in the fear? Not be afraid. It’s the mirror of your soul so that you can understand the judgment, condemnation that you are under. Because it’s your decree, it’s coming from you.

00:50:09:07 – 00:50:29:12
Jonathan Otto
And so you will stand before that judgment, which is you, you know, Judge, not lest you be judge for whatever judgment you measure upon others, it will be measured upon you. It’s coming from you. So you’ve got to deal with the problem. And this is why we you look at somebody that’s committing mass genocide, how do you think that they will stand before themselves on the day of judgment?

00:50:29:12 – 00:50:44:15
Jonathan Otto
The judgment that, if judged upon others, then comes back to them in full force because it’s coming from themselves and God can’t save them from it because it’s their choice. And that’s where you really see the battle here is over there, over the soul in God, trying to navigate with what people understand.

00:50:44:24 – 00:51:18:06
Nathan Crane
Hmm. Yeah, that’s so powerful. And so that, you know, reminds me of Ephesians 431. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice and be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ’s sake, has forgiven you. And then Matthew 614 for if he forgive men, their trespass, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.

00:51:18:21 – 00:51:44:23
Nathan Crane
And also, you know, any speaking to Jacob about people not honoring God, right? In Isaiah 43, he says, I even I am he that blotted out thy transgressions for my own sake and will not remember thy sins. So, you know, this this idea that we are from Old Testament, New Testament, there are so many examples of forgiveness and kindness.

00:51:44:23 – 00:52:10:11
Nathan Crane
And no matter what we’ve done, you know, and there’s an action there, right? If we forgive, we are forgiven. So it’s not saying sit there and do nothing, continue being a bad person. Right. And saying forgive others and to forgive others. If anybody’s ever practiced forgiveness, it’s very difficult to forgive others, especially when you haven’t forgiven yourself and when you forgive yourself.

00:52:10:11 – 00:52:29:07
Nathan Crane
The powerful things that happened in your life. In my own life, when I forgave those who I condemned my own family members, things that I didn’t understand when I was, you know, homeless on the streets, you know, addicted to drugs and alcohol. My my mother kicked me out of the house and I, you know, tried, you know, going back to live with her.

00:52:29:07 – 00:52:48:11
Nathan Crane
And she she couldn’t handle me. She didn’t know what to do with me. I mean, I was a wild addict, 15 year old kid that was, you know, in and out of jail and addicted to drugs. And so she you know, no, I can’t I can’t help you. And so I harbored that resentment until I was 19 years old.

00:52:48:19 – 00:53:11:22
Nathan Crane
You know, didn’t talk to her for years, changed my life, started committing myself to to being healthy, to to knowing God, to healing myself, my mind, my spirit. And when I forgave her and realized that it wasn’t her right, it was me forgiving her. It was this it was my resentment that I held, my anger that I held, my sadness that I held towards her.

00:53:12:18 – 00:53:35:07
Nathan Crane
It freed me. It freed me from that negativity within myself. So just as Jesus teaches and even as God says in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, you know, we have to forgive others. And when we do, we also are forgiven. When I forgave my own mother, I was forgiven. I’d like to think about that for a second as a metaphor.

00:53:35:07 – 00:54:00:24
Nathan Crane
I was forgiven of that sin that I held inside myself. I literally heard this like explosion on the phone, like this electric shock on the phone, and I felt this weight lifted off of me. And so I feel like there’s a lot of very practical advice in the Bible like this that are saying, do these things and you will see what happens.

00:54:01:19 – 00:54:20:19
Nathan Crane
Because as I’ve done them in my own life and then, you know, Keesha, you as I’ve shared her story many times where she forgave the babysitter who molested her child, you know, she she didn’t know about it until years later. And then she grew a breast tumor. And she knew it was from when she found out about that babysitter molester child when she was much younger, when when they were much younger.

00:54:21:06 – 00:54:37:02
Nathan Crane
And then all of a sudden, in like three months, she grew a breast tumor. She knew it was from that anger and resentment not only towards the babysitter, but towards herself. How could I allow this to happen under my own roof, you know, to my child, what a terrible person I am. Boom, breast tumor. She was smart enough to know.

00:54:37:02 – 00:55:09:05
Nathan Crane
And so she forgave him and forgave herself. And in months, the breast tumor went away. Right. So it’s like this divine power within us for healing. We know this with the cancer patients that we work with in the work that you do with cancer. And I’ve seen it so many times where when people, you know, forgive themselves, forgive others, dove into their spiritual practice and focus on healing the emotional traumas, then their body improves, their body heals, their body can even reverse cancer and other diseases.

00:55:09:16 – 00:55:35:07
Nathan Crane
So, I mean, these are all, you know, laid out in the Bible as well. But I want to ask this to you as well really quick is what if here’s a question I had. What if Jesus was never crucified, right? What if Jesus were never crucified? He knew he was going to be crucified. Right? It talks. He not only knew that they would mock him and scorch him and spit on him and kill him.

00:55:35:07 – 00:56:03:21
Nathan Crane
Right. This is Mark. He knew for certain that they would crucify him as Matthew 2019. He he knew it was coming. And I think he knew it needed to happen. And I think had it not happened, he would have been he would have gone down as another teacher in history, like many other wise sages before him, from India and Tibet and Thailand and all over the world that have had great impact in the world in different ways to their spiritual teachings.

00:56:04:12 – 00:56:27:18
Nathan Crane
But without the crucifixion, I don’t think we would have had such an explosion in, you know, Christianity all around the world and the and the Bible and all, you know, everything that came from that, you know, spreading all around the world. I don’t think we would have that without it. So I think he knew that it needed to happen for his teachings to reach the world in such a massive way.

00:56:27:21 – 00:56:30:01
Nathan Crane
That’s my that’s my perception.

00:56:30:06 – 00:56:54:05
Jonathan Otto
It’s amazing that you say that because I haven’t heard many people come to that conclusion in that way. And for that reason, and I do believe that that is that that was God’s, you know, wisdom and the ultimate in me. That’s the ultimate love when you realize if that bullet wasn’t even coming from God, that. So it wasn’t it wasn’t a death sentence that was against you.

00:56:54:05 – 00:57:19:11
Jonathan Otto
So imagine. Right? So this is the typical understanding, like God as a bullet is shooting at it. You Christ comes and takes the bullet instead he intercepts and it goes through him. And what that does is it creates a, you know, this, you know, love for Christ for what He did, did, but then this disconnection with God, his father, for why he would do this, you know, why would God do this to me?

00:57:19:11 – 00:57:46:06
Jonathan Otto
And so, you know, that belief it has this it’s but you can’t convince somebody that it’s not true because it’s so deep in them and because, you know, we all require penalties like this is you turn on a Jurassic Park film and you start realizing that these dinosaurs are like objects of they’re that God’s wrath manifested and they they’re punishing everyone for their sins.

00:57:46:06 – 00:58:04:05
Jonathan Otto
Like watch what happens. It’s when when they’re greedy, when they’re gluttonous, there’s always the ones that are overweight, which is so cruel. When you think about Warren a second, this is how I how much do you hear people, you know, judge and talk about each other and their their body and their weight and, you know, people with children, you’ve got to be really careful.

00:58:04:05 – 00:58:19:14
Jonathan Otto
You might have a reflection, but you say that in front of your children, they they start thinking that it’s okay to value people differently based on their bodies. You know, it doesn’t mean we can’t be better. And we talk about, you know, the challenge and we have to talk about it like a health thing. So we we know what what we’re striving for.

00:58:19:14 – 00:58:41:06
Jonathan Otto
But but if it’s isn’t a conversation of value, then that’s that’s cruel. And so you see all this happen and people getting punished for all these things. And and so then you flip it the other way. Now you see, okay, God knew that this was the thing that would touch the heart and it would do something for the human soul that nothing could.

00:58:41:13 – 00:59:00:06
Jonathan Otto
And it would it would pay the price. It would it would meet the atonement, which is a fascinating word. So it’s three words. Atonement is use of a blood sacrifice. If you hear the word you think, if you’ve heard it before, you think, okay, it’s a it’s a word to denote sacrifice, blood, sacrifice. But the word is three words at one minute, atonement.

00:59:00:06 – 00:59:17:15
Jonathan Otto
It’s the same a same root word for reconciliation. And so it’s something that has a dual meaning. So in the minds of people, it’s like it’s a it’s a blood sacrifice. And through blood, we can now achieve the the making right of things and it settles the score. And now everything’s okay, right? Because the problem has been dealt with.

00:59:17:15 – 00:59:41:07
Jonathan Otto
There’s been a sentence. So why that you see cases where they can’t find the murderer and then they’ll actually pin it on somebody else and they know that it’s that’s incorrect. But it’s the cases go forward. You know, one case was the movie Just Mercy with Michael Jordan. And you’ve got Arthur McMillan known as Johnny D, who who was pinned for a rape and murder.

00:59:41:20 – 01:00:01:23
Jonathan Otto
And it wasn’t him. And the people, you know, all the people basically you watch the movie or watched the documentaries and they knew it wasn’t him. And it and he did get out eventually, but the society was basically just standing back going, well, you know, someone has to pay. Greenwald is an example where it’s effective, but he has to pay.

01:00:02:21 – 01:00:21:01
Nathan Crane
It was such a good story, by the way. That’s one of the first I’d say that’s one of the first like thick books I ever read in my life. And I was I was a young teenager, and I remember reading it in Bozeman, Montana. I lived with my mom and I think my younger brother was still living with us.

01:00:21:01 – 01:00:40:14
Nathan Crane
I hadn’t been kicked out yet, and I hadn’t been as deep down that dark rabbit hole as as I did, you know, a few years later. And I remember in that book was I mean, that book still the story still sticks with me today. Now, the film is really good, too, but the book, you know, is amazing, you know?

01:00:40:14 – 01:00:44:23
Nathan Crane
And so anyways, if anyone has ever read The Green Mile, I do recommend it.

01:00:45:18 – 01:01:08:12
Jonathan Otto
Yeah. And it’s all about this substitution or atonement, somebody. So atonement, blood, sacrifice or not? Not necessarily the meaning of the word because it’s actually just two parties coming together and but but in this context, absolutely. Blood, sacrifice and then substitution so that somebody has to do it instead of because I can’t pay my own debt if I do, then I’m lost forever.

01:01:08:12 – 01:01:27:22
Jonathan Otto
And I don’t want that. So so this death in my place, it it is so beautiful because it meets you where you’re at and that’s to me why it’s caught wind, because we’ve all got this in a knowing that there’s something wrong and then under our own system there needs to be retribution, which to me is it’s the satanic concept.

01:01:27:22 – 01:01:47:06
Jonathan Otto
It’s interesting why Christ is not referred to on the cross is like a lamb, a white lamb on an altar. It’s actually referred to as a snake, a john 314 as Moses lifted it up, the serpent in the wilderness social also the son of man be lifted up. So he’s referred to as a serpent on a pole, which is crazy to think about.

01:01:47:06 – 01:02:10:22
Jonathan Otto
Why, why? Why are you referring to yourself as like a serpent, which is like the source of all evil from Genesis and, and, but when you look at the cross and you see someone lacerated, he got 39 lashes twice, no flesh on his torso with that kind of, you know, with a Roman squash, with metal in it to rip your flesh.

01:02:11:07 – 01:02:35:16
Jonathan Otto
And and you see him on, on the cross weeping and you realize it’s it’s evil. Like that is evil. That’s not justice. It’s satanic justice. And that’s what that is teaching. And and it’s a mirror of the soul. And so that serpent was actually made out of brass. Brass is not a naturally occurring metal, which is if you look at the sanctuary, it says that where God is in the sanctuary, it is filled with teachings.

01:02:35:16 – 01:02:53:20
Jonathan Otto
It’s in the holy and most holy place are filled with gold and silver as the metals and then some wood all all God made. But the altar sacrifice is not made out of the God made metal. It’s made out of brass, which is a or a bronze, which is an alloy of zinc and copper. And the first mirrors are also made out of brass.

01:02:54:21 – 01:03:20:04
Jonathan Otto
So when you commit a sacrifice, you see your own reflection, you see your own soul, it’s telling you what you are. So you look at the cross and you say, This is what I required. And he’s now facing the penalty that I put upon him. And this now. And because now I can see this, this is the this is my way through salvation, because it’s meeting me where I’m at, but not because God needed a death to save me, because I needed the death to save me.

01:03:20:10 – 01:03:42:07
Jonathan Otto
And this is why you see all the passages talk about reconciliation. None of them talk about God reconciling with men. It all talks about men reconciling with God, which means that we were the offended party, the one that needed to have the war that we had reconciled, which was and you look at the passage to say when we were enemies, not when God was our enemy, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son.

01:03:42:20 – 01:04:09:02
Jonathan Otto
So that was what caused the human heart to then respond to God. And then now the beautiful thing, this things happening together all at once. So that’s the that’s the darkness that the the captive, the need for that penalty to be settled in my own psyche and conscience as as I have now, I mandated it now to say now what’s happening at the same time is God’s love and forgiveness is being extended irrespective of the cruelty that’s been inflicted on him.

01:04:09:11 – 01:04:30:13
Jonathan Otto
And and then that love is now being extended. That’s to me. I see myself in this picture. And so on a personal note, Nathan, like, I absolutely see myself in this picture and it and I see myself as being an offender, not as innocent bystander. And, and then you’d say, well, you know, that sounds pretty self-loathing or, you know why you never did that.

01:04:30:13 – 01:04:48:24
Jonathan Otto
And you know, you do good things out there. You know, why would you associate yourself with that? And it’s like, well, you you read an eulogy and it’s all the positive things. But it’s I know the other things, the things that have gone in my head, my mind, the difficulties, the heartbreak that the poor choices I’ve made, that people have hurt.

01:04:49:08 – 01:05:24:02
Jonathan Otto
And so, you know, God is not, you know, extending that forgiveness to me in this situation where I really don’t think I deserve it at all. And so it’s taken things to the breaking point and I’m loved and accepted. Now, if I can accept it here, this is the this is the only opportunity. So the cross is now why it’s the it’s the centerpiece of Christianity because it’s the it’s the it’s the it’s the thing that makes you realize that God loves you and accepts you and that there’s no restriction to his love and that you see yourself as in this story and embraced and loved and in the truest sense.

01:05:24:02 – 01:05:45:09
Jonathan Otto
Now, when you see that God didn’t require the sacrifice and you realize it came from yourself, Christ talked about this, he says to the Pharisees going, When learn what this means. They they were saying tax collectors and sinners deserve to be and gotten rid of basically that was that the meaning of what they’re saying? He says, I designed mercy and not sacrifice and go.

01:05:45:09 – 01:06:05:10
Jonathan Otto
And when I I deserve mercy and go and learn what this means and I’ll have mercy and not sacrifice. So it was mercy instead of sacrifice. That’s the way of God. And anyway, so you you then start to see yourself as a caught up in this beautiful picture and realize that your forgiveness is there for you. And this was the healing power.

01:06:05:15 – 01:06:28:02
Jonathan Otto
If I was to tell you one thing that healed me more than anything else when it came to sexual addiction, it was this. And I, you know, I was that I was the guy that, you know, nothing could really work. And because and I didn’t have the addiction where I was like it was like an everyday thing. But when low points would hit, I couldn’t stop my thoughts from racing in that way, looking for comfort.

01:06:28:09 – 01:06:55:20
Jonathan Otto
I When and when my wife had sexual trauma and that she withdrawn, withdrew from me sexually. And then I felt so rejected. And that withdrawal was, you know, often underscored by very, you know, outbursts of anger and things like this. And then so I feel, well, you know, I need to I need to find peace and comfort. And so and this really highlighted the fact that I didn’t have that in God.

01:06:55:20 – 01:07:20:12
Jonathan Otto
And then then going back and realizing, man, I am just so deeply loved and cherished by God and that I’m not under this penalty that I thought I was under, that was causing me to explode and kind of lose my temper at times. And and yeah, sure. Sometimes. Do I lose my temper? Yeah, sure. Sometimes things come up, but I can tell you it’s night and day and I can tell you that, you know, my wife would tell you that that I’m a different person and that I.

01:07:20:22 – 01:07:26:08
Nathan Crane
I know your wife really well. I’ll ask her if your sexual addiction has truly been held or not. She’ll tell me that.

01:07:27:12 – 01:07:30:07
Jonathan Otto
She’s actually eating water over here so she can hear.

01:07:30:10 – 01:07:35:00
Nathan Crane
Hey, Lori, what’s happening?

01:07:35:00 – 01:07:35:13
Jonathan Otto
So, yeah.

01:07:35:17 – 01:07:38:13
Nathan Crane
Yeah, I’ll get the truth. We’ll get the truth one way or another.

01:07:39:05 – 01:07:54:11
Jonathan Otto
Well, yeah, exactly. But no, I look, husbands or partners or whatever can easily keep secrets like that from their their wives. So you you really only can ever really fully know within yourself. And and so. Right, you know.

01:07:54:11 – 01:08:25:02
Nathan Crane
Yeah, no, it’s true. And so I know we have 2 minutes left. So just to kind of wrap up, I think the one thing I want to I want to say is, you know, I encourage anyone, you know, all of you tuning in, listening to this now is to to ask yourself these questions, to meditate and pray to God and ask for guidance on these things we spoke about and see where in your own life maybe you feel the need to to sacrifice yourself to that.

01:08:25:02 – 01:08:53:10
Nathan Crane
There is this sacrificial part of you that is driving your life, that that there is this deep rooted subconsciousness, subconscious ideas and beliefs that are driving your life to either continue, you know, sinning and harming others and harming yourself, even in subtle ways. And this subconscious belief that we we cannot control that. And it is, you know, embedded deeply within us, because I know my own experience.

01:08:53:11 – 01:09:22:20
Nathan Crane
These are things that we can become masters of, that we can heal within ourselves, that we can through Christ and through God and through, you know, these divine teachings, even these teachings, like I said, that I’ve studied from ancient traditions all around the world. They teach the very, very, very similar things. And in fact, the Vedas teach a science of how to enlighten our minds to a point where we no longer have a single negative thought or sinful thought.

01:09:22:20 – 01:09:43:17
Nathan Crane
And there are many people who have gotten to that level. And I believe the stories that I’ve read, one of those stories, it’s wonderful story. I highly recommend people read as the Autobiography of a Yogi. It’s about Paramahansa Yogananda, his life, who came here to the west from India in the mid 1900s. He basically brought yoga here to the west and his life is an incredible story.

01:09:43:17 – 01:10:05:24
Nathan Crane
I mean, and the teachers that taught him, Shri Uku Sua has a really great explanation about Genesis and Adam and Eve and that whole I won’t get into it right now, but you can look it up or here or he talks about it in his book. You know, it gives you a different perspective and kind of similar to what you’re talking about.

01:10:06:03 – 01:10:31:03
Nathan Crane
Jonathan But, but I think even deeper in some regards where this man was incredibly wise in and was able to explain the deeper symbolic meanings of Genesis and in the creation story and Adam and Eve that I think is so profound. But, you know, I encourage people tuning in. I mean, don’t take our word for it, obviously. And discover this for yourself.

01:10:31:03 – 01:10:56:21
Nathan Crane
Meditate on a prayer, you know, pray to God, ask for guidance, reflect and see in your own life where your love for God and your love, your your desire to be your highest self, your best self, your true self, your purest self, your Christlike self, right as Christ was teaching us. Remember, Christ is not Jesus His last name, right?

01:10:57:09 – 01:11:26:16
Nathan Crane
He was Jesus of Nazareth. And back then no good things came out of Nazareth, which was very interesting. Right. So it was very a quite, quite the paradox for people to go what the Messiah came from Nazareth is coming from Nazareth. That doesn’t even make sense. Nothing good comes out of Nazareth, but that Christ is the divinity, the God expression of Jesus and the Christ like life that Jesus led and brought to us to show us the way to God.

01:11:26:16 – 01:11:52:24
Nathan Crane
And so that’s how I perceive that. And, and every day I’m certainly not perfect and make mistakes and have negative thoughts. But I can tell you 20 years ago until now, I have, you know overcome so many things and I have less negative thoughts never before. And I live an amazing life now and I’ve healed many addictions. And, you know, I’ve I’ve transcended so many of these subconscious beliefs that were sabotaging my life.

01:11:52:24 – 01:12:12:00
Nathan Crane
And there’s still more to do and more traumas to heal. But I’m a testament that it’s possible to get out of poverty and homelessness and drug addiction and sex addiction and alcohol addiction and cigaret addiction and processed food addiction and negative thinking addiction. I was a terrible, terrible person. If anyone’s sinned more than anybody else, it was definitely me.

01:12:12:11 – 01:12:26:16
Nathan Crane
And to overcome that to where I am now in my life is a testament to literally what Jesus teaches us, how to be like Christ, how to be Christ like. And so that’s what I’m trying to do every day.

01:12:27:08 – 01:12:47:16
Jonathan Otto
It’s beautiful. Thank you, Nathan What a beautiful testimony. And, you know, I. I see that in you. And I’m grateful for the help that you gave recently out in Kenya and the fact that you’re you don’t you’re in for the long while and that’s that’s rare. And so thank you for your heart for people. I see it strongly and clearly and appreciate your friendship, brother.

01:12:47:23 – 01:13:04:23
Nathan Crane
Yeah, you brother. I love talking with you, man. I learn from you every time. And, you know, I think the first conversation we had like this was I was in San Diego a few years ago and we had a phone call, if you remember. And I would say even a few years ago, I was reluctant to kind of I actually was very interested.

01:13:05:09 – 01:13:27:08
Nathan Crane
No, I wasn’t reluctant then. I was reluctant before that to go into deep conversations about Jesus or the Bible. By the time you and I spoke, I was very excited about it. Right. And I was just like, I just ask you questions to share ideas and pick brain. I realized, wow, Johno is brilliant when it comes to, you know, understanding the Bible and seeing it from an incredibly higher perspective.

01:13:27:08 – 01:13:34:02
Nathan Crane
So did I love our time together. I appreciate this conversation deeply, and I look forward to doing it again with you.

01:13:34:16 – 01:13:36:21
Jonathan Otto
I look forward to to by the. Thanks for your time, Nathan.

01:13:37:02 – 01:13:38:04
Nathan Crane
I take care.